First Sight and Second Thoughts

In this episode: the Wash. Post detective bracket, who’s better - Nancy Drew or Sherlock Holmes, the fractal nature of Sherlock, why we have so many Holmeses and not as many Nancy Drews, a look at Barbara Neely's Blanche on the Lam, and lots and lots of book recs. Recorded Jul 14, 2021. 

Tarot card: Wheel of Fortune

Evelyn Archer: askevelynarcher.com @evelynarches on IG & Twitter Modesty Brown books on Amazon

Lucy Neptune: @lucyneptunewnd on IG

Everything (we think) mentioned this episode:
Washington Post bracket

From Conan Doyle Sherlock canon:
Scandal in Bohemia, Five Orange Pips, Adventure of the Yellow Face

Michael Chabon Books:
Yiddish Policeman's Union
The Final Solution

Sherlock Holmes Versions on screen:
Jeremy Brett, Robert Downey Jr & Jude Law, Elementary with Jonny Lee Miller & Lucy Liu, Sherlock (BBC) with Benedict Cumberbatch & Martin Freeman, House MD, Mr. Holmes (We *say* it’s based on Chabon’s Final Solution,  but it’s not. It’s based on A Slight Trick of the Mind by Mitch Cullen)

Frogwares Sherlock Holmes games
A Study in Emerald by Neil Gaiman
Shadows Over Baker Street (Lovecraft/Holmes anthology by John Pelan & Michael Reaves)

Nancy Drew on screen:
Bonita Granville in Nancy Drew, Girl Reporter (1939), Emma Roberts Nancy Drew (2007), Hidden Staircase (2019), Hardy Boys/Nancy Drew Mysteries (1977-79), CW Nancy Drew (2019- )
HerInteractive games including Curse of Blackmoor Manor
Retcon: short for “retroactive continuity”
Veronica Mars TV show & movie
Kelly Link’s "The Girl Detective" in  “Stranger Things Happen” 

Other Detectives from the Bracket:

Armand Gamache by Louise Penny 

PD James Adam Dalgleish novels. Also on Acorn TV

Coffin Ed Johnson & Grave Digger Jones from Chester Himes’ Harlem Detective series

Inspector Alan Grant Mysteries, Josephine Tey

Barbara Neely, Blanche White novels

Tiffany Aching books by Terry Pratchett

No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency by Alexander McCall Smith

Maisie Dobbs by Jacqueline Winspear

Vera Stanhope novels by Ann Cleeves (CW: fatphobia)

Philip Marlowe by Raymond Chandler

Attica Locke and Darren Matthews, Texas Ranger novels

Isaiah Quintabe (IQ Novels) by Joe Ide

Henry Rios novels by Michael Nava

Agent Nina Guerrera novels by Isabella Maldonado

Tana French

Umbrella Academy TV show

Logo by Alex Zapata
Music by Prettysleepy on Pixabay
Transcript by Otter AI
Public Library Association

Transcript

EPISODE TWO:  FIRST SIGHT AND SECOND THOUGHTS

TRANSCRIPTION BY OTTER AI. 100% ACCURACY NOT GUARANTEED. 
EMAIL witchesanddicks@gmail.com

Tue, 3/22 12:25PM • 1:04:03

Lucy Neptune  00:01

There's something a bit supernatural about detectives.

Evelyn Archer  00:04

 And there's a bit of the private dick in a witch.

Lucy Neptune  00:06

Veronica Mars removes hexes.

Evelyn Archer  00:08

Willow Rosenberg solves crimes.

Lucy Neptune  00:10

I'm Lucy Neptune.

Evelyn Archer  00:11

I'm Evelyn Archer.

Lucy Neptune  00:12

We're coming to you live to tape from unceded Narragansett and Wampanoag land.

Evelyn Archer  00:17

 And we're here to have a little chinwag about witches, private dicks, and the place where the "Little m" mystery meets up with the "Big M" Mystery. This is Witches and Dicks.

Evelyn Archer  00:00

Hi folks, it's Lucy and Evelyn coming to you from the future. We're preparing our season closer episode and we want to hear from you.

Lucy Neptune  00:08

You can ask us anything. Book recommendations baking problems, a mystery you just can't solve?

Evelyn Archer  00:14

Send your questions to witchesanddicks@gmail.com or hit us up on Instagram and @witchesanddicks. Let us be your Agony Aunts and you could hear your letter read on the air.

Lucy Neptune  00:32

Hi Evelyn. 

Evelyn Archer  00:33

Hi Lucy. 

Lucy Neptune  00:35

How are you?

Evelyn Archer  

 I am good. You're listening to Witches and Dicks, a podcast with myself, Evelyn Archer, and the intrepid Lucy Neptune--

Evelyn Archer  00:46

 ...as my partner and we are going to be talking about all things witches and all things dickish. 

Lucy Neptune  00:46

Includes private detectives.

Evvelyn Archer  00:55

 Including private detectives, we're looking at how the little m mysteries intersect with the big M mysteries. 

Lucy Neptune  01:03

Yes, indeed.

Evvelyn Archer  01:04

 And I think today we are talking about the bracket from the Wall Street Journal... 

Lucy Neptune  01:12

Washington Post.

Evvelyn Archer  01:13

 I'm sorry, the Washington Post, who's the greatest detective? And-- excuse me. What I thought it was going to be is that the first bracket was going to be “Who's the best detective? Nancy Drew? Or Sherlock Holmes?” but that was not the first… That's just the clickbait title to get you to click on, 

Lucy Neptune  01:37

Right. But they come up matched against each other within the second round, because well, it’s a red herring.

Evelyn Archer  01:43

Well, that's how brackets work.

Lucy Neptune  01:45

No, but I mean. They could have set up the bracket so that if each of them won their brackets, they wouldn't meet until the very end, if they put them on the ends of the brackets as it were, and they won their first… 

Evelyn Archer  01:59

Because the way that it looked to me, what they did was the person you choose here will get one point. And then in the second bracket, the people that you chose from the first… there's only the one I just kept getting the same people over and over again.

Lucy Neptune  02:14

Right, but Okay, so what I got the first matchup was Sherlock Holmes versus Philip Marlowe. 

Evelyn Archer

Right. That's the first one right. 

Lucy Neptune

And for me, I had to choose Sherlock Holmes.

Evelyn Archer  02:23

I had to choose Philip Marlowe. 

Lucy Neptune  02:26

Oh, very nice. And then the second matchup was Nancy Drew versus Lord Peter Wimsey.

Evelyn Archer  02:32

Yeah. And that was a tough… I do love Lord Peter. I do love Lord Peter, but nobody replaces Nancy in my heart. But like, my point was, like, while it's true that this was not a question of “Who's better? Sherlock Holmes or Nancy Drew?” I do think that they're especially interesting two detectives to talk about which one is better. And one thing I will notice is that, you know, you do the whole bracket, right. And then the Washington Post will show you how you rated these detectives against how everyone rated the detectives. And I noticed that Nancy Drew was straight in the middle. She was number 15, when I did that this afternoon. And Philip Marlowe was dead last, and Sam Spade was not mentioned. 

Lucy Neptune  

Mm hmm. (affirmative)

Evelyn Archer

And what I did notice is that the ones that are the most popular are ones that have series on Acorn and BritBox right now. 

Lucy Neptune  

Ha, yes. Yeah. 

Evelyn Archer

So they're more well known. And, and I think when we're talking about who's the best. Do you mean, who's the best? This is my question. What do you mean by best? Do you mean who's your favorite?

Lucy Neptune  03:45

Hold just a minute. I got to reposition.

Evelyn Archer  03:48

And we're back. But we're talking about the bracket on Washington Post. And the question that I think is interesting here, there's a couple of different questions. And I got really hung up on the Sherlock Holmes iconography and the Nancy Drew iconography. And one of the questions that I have is like, okay, so if this is the best detective, what do you mean by best? Do you mean percentage of cases solved? Are we talking about your arrest rate? 

Cats. Sorry, folks. Dr. Watson, in fact, is here with us. 

And so as you can tell, like Sherlock Holmes is an important part of my interior landscape as my cats are named Dr. Watson.

No, Dr. Watson. 

Dr. Watson and Irene Adler. So, but Nancy Drew, is at 100%. She has solved 100% of her cases. Sherlock Holmes did not. Scandal in Bohemia, Five Orange Pips as a matter of fact, the adventure of the yellow face, which is a very interesting story about interracial marriage, believe it or not, during your time Yes, he got that case. So wrong. It took place in Norbury that he told Dr. Watson listen, if you ever see me like getting too overconfident, just leaned over and whispered Norbury okay, because that will remind me that I'm not infallible. Nancy Drew, like I said, is that 100%? But does that really make her a better detective? Mm hmm. I don't know. I think there is an argument to be made. That the fact that the great Sherlock Holmes could lose cases, makes him more realistic, and therefore a better detective. I don't know.

Lucy Neptune  05:36

Does the rigor with which he's known to think, does Nancy have what is? What is her rigor? Like what? Wow,

Evelyn Archer  05:46

that's interesting. I should mention that because looking at my notes right here, that is an excellent segue into my next anyway. Well, my next point oh, sorry. My next point is that the big difference between the two of them to me is that Sherlock Holmes is really seen as a kind of logic machine, right. He is known for being emotionless, and he doesn't need connection with other people. He's always he's about the puzzle and he is 100% logical. And Nancy Drew has more emotional intelligence. Ah, and the way that I put this in, in my notes, there is a way for Sherlock Holmes to be seen as the superior detective because he doesn't have feelings. And I reject that. Let's reach out of hand. That is some bullshit patriarchal nonsense. With the end, I mean, I could go into it, I could go into the whole enlightenment, and the very idea that you should have emotions is going to make you less of a more that's capitalism making you unproductive. It's a whole thing. Sherlock Holmes cares about the puzzle. Nancy Drew, who cares about helping those two girls on that farm? Right. You know, that's why she's in it. She doesn't care about being the best. Sherlock Holmes cares a lot about being

Lucy Neptune  07:18

the best. Right? Right, right. Yeah.

Evelyn Archer  07:20

Nancy Drew is a human person. Sure, Sherlock Holmes is a collection of affectations. It's, it's just a very different right thing. But you know, that's, that's my feeling about it that.

Lucy Neptune  07:41

Yeah, it's interesting. I was just remembering. Michael. I don't remember how to pronounce his name. Michael shinbone, the Michael Chabon shaven. Thank you.

Evelyn Archer  07:52

I say Chairman Michael Hayden. My apologies, Professor Chabon, he’s not listening.

Lucy Neptune  07:57

Okay. He wrote a lovely little novella

Evelyn Archer  08:01

The Yiddish Policeman’s Union?

Lucy Neptune  08:03

Not that one. No, it was I think it's called the final solution. Oh, yeah. That yeah, yeah. Hopefully about basically Sherlock Holmes as an old man. Maybe they made a movie out of that, didn't they? Yes. I didn't. didn't wait. Guess it. Yes, I did with Ian McKellen. Yes, yes, that's it. Okay. I had the book was better, I think. But um, so I'm, I'm putting Sherlock Holmes I'm thinking about this, because I'm like, What does Sherlock Holmes think about on his deathbed, right. Does he have any does it first of all, you know, does he have the capacity to kind of wish Oh, I should have loved more.

Evelyn Archer  08:39

I should well, and I think it depends on how you want to look at and talk about him. Are we talking about, you know, Conan Doyle's version of him? Are we talking about our fanfic version of him? Because one of the things about Sherlock Holmes This is getting into, you know, we're jumping ahead in my notes. That's okay. That's okay. One of the things about Sherlock Holmes that's, it's not just interesting. It's kind of he will knock that over just so you know, okay. Just keep an eye on it. All right. He's not just going to smell it in a curious way and then walk away. He's going to knock over your drink. Dr. Watson, the cat, Dr. Watson the cat. But what's interesting about Sherlock Holmes is that there are these kind of refract tolls of who Sherlock Holmes is. We have had so many iterations of this guy in outside of the books in TV and movies. There's Jeremy Brett. Robert Downey Jr, which, not for nothing. This is a hot tip for me to use that first Sherlock Holmes movie with Jude Law and RDJ fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. The second one, I didn't like it so much, but it was it was like I did love Stephen Fry as Mycroft tones but When you get into like, the minute that you stop having a mystery, and it becomes a super spy thriller, I lose interest. So I can't tell you if that movie was any good or not any story like that. I'm just super bored by. We've got that we got Johnny Lee Miller on American regular television. I love the idea and then tree. Elementary. Thank you. I love the idea that sick boy from Trainspotting grows up and become Sherlock Holmes amazing. And the Benedict Cumberbatch on the BBC. He's fine. I have my issues showrunner for that. He and I've been in a fight for years and my heart. He hates women and doesn't understand what stories are. But that's okay. But there are so many of them. And they've been kind of refracted and reflected and refracted, where we have all of these different slightly different versions of Sherlock Holmes, and they're always recognizable, because of, you know, the dressing gown and the violin and he you know, shoots Victoria Regina into his apartment wall. They all do that. But they all do it in kind of a different way. So there are all these kinds of fanfic versions right of Sherlock Holmes out there. literation. There well, even within generations, they're very different because Jonny Lee Miller Sherlock Holmes is very different from elementary is a completely different show. For from the BBC Sherlock, and I'm here to say it. It's better. Okay, then BBC. It's better. It's better because it's more interesting. He's not. Jonny Lee Miller's Sherlock Holmes is not just it's this trope that we have really taken and run with in all sorts of everything. It's It's Dr. House, it's the genius white dude, who can be an asshole to everyone, because he's such a genius. And that's what Benedict Cumberbatch is doing. Because that's what that showrunner is having him do. Jonny Lee Miller is trying to take that Sherlock Holmes and turn him into a feeling human being. And that's an interesting transformation to watch. Right?

Lucy Neptune  12:10

I've only watched a couple episodes, but he has like a question will appear in his mind, a question will appear across his eyes like Oh, is that should I, you know, there's little flickers which make him more interesting and accessible.

Evelyn Archer  12:24

And the writing on that I have to say, it really holds up. It's really, really good, and especially by the later seasons. Like he's actually made connections with people despite his best intentions. It's really kind of lovely to see that. So we have that. Then we have Robert Downey Jr's, which is a very theatrical, Sherlock Holmes, a very extra he's very dramatic. He's very into the costumes. He's very much a swashbuckler. And I remember when that movie was coming out the way that they were advertising it. It's not your father's Sherlock Holmes. And I'm like, well, actually, no, it totally is. Actually, no, it's your grandfather's Sherlock Holmes, because if you actually go back and read the actual stories, he shot people up with guns. He knew eight different kinds of kung fu. He was like always, like jumping on the back of the trains. Like, he was not just a kind of posh brain, like in a dressing gown chewing on a pipe in front of his fireplace, he did that. But in the stories, if he did that for long enough, he became very, very bored. And when he became bored, he started doing more cocaine. Like, it's just a very different kind. And it's, it's really fun. That first one is really, really, really fun. And you know, Benedict Cumberbatch is fine. Like, he understood the assignment. But

Lucy Neptune  13:56

yeah, it did some fun things stylistically in terms of you know, bringing it into what century are we in 21st And you're showing like the text appear on the screen like that was interesting. Yeah. Showing his mind palace. And you know, like, there were some fun stylistic thing there worried it feel modern. And oh, this is right now.

Evelyn Archer  14:18

This is right now. It's happening right now. And I mean, and now you go back and look at those again. Now. They will look dated, right?

Lucy Neptune  14:24

Oh, yes. But you know, Dr. Watson came from the war in Afghanistan. Yeah. That was quite clever. Yeah. And like, here we are again. Yeah. So there were some there are some things but yes, I

Evelyn Archer  14:37

but honestly, they lost me when they took Irene Adler. The only person who managed to truly, truly best Sherlock Holmes, not a villain, but was just a little smarter than he was and turned her into a prostitute. a sex worker who used her feminine wiles? To nope, nope, nope, nope, I'm out. I hate you. I hate you so much. I hate you. So I was out like I broke up with it at that point. I was like, Really, this is one of the first most interesting female characters written in the 19th century. And this is what you're going to do to work. You can kiss my ass. I'm out. Yeah. So I had kind of had to break up with and I had to really be convinced to watch elementary on I believe it was CBS. I think that's right. Yes. But you know, Lucy Liu in menswear, is attacking me directly. I have to be honest. That's attacking me directly. That's personal now. That's Lucy Lewin. And Alan used to joke that he's like, you realize you're talking under your breath while you're watching her. I'm like I am. And he's like, you're like, oh, he looks so cute today to you want to go get some ice cream? I'm like, yeah, like I have this whole like fantasy life. She and I are extremely close. But one of the things that's interesting is that you have like I said, you have all these were fractal showing homes. So who is the real Sherlock Holmes? And are we talking? And does that really matter? I don't think it matters. I think that all of those things kind of add up to what he means in our cultural consciousness. But I'm curious as to why we can have, you know, elementary and BBC running. There's Robert Downey Jr. had a movie not long before those started. Meanwhile, Frogwares is making still making Sherlock Holmes games for the PC all at the same time. And there have been checks notes. There have been 12345 movies and a video game of Nancy Drew since 1939. Starting with that, it's not enough starting with Bonita Granville in 1939. In Nancy girl, Nancy Drew girl reporter which was great. The Emma Roberts thing in 2007 of Nancy Drew there was even a hidden staircase that came out in 2017. It's during the hidden staircase that came out in 2017. That would completely under the radar. I don't even know if it was released in theaters. And it started that really interesting young actress the girl from the Stephen King it movie The young girl. She was Nancy Drew and she it looked great. And I will say the title again. Nancy during the hidden staircase. 2017. This young lady that's her. Sophia Willis. Yep. And it went completely under the radar. I didn't see it. I didn't know where to see it didn't come to any theaters that I could see. Right. I'm gonna see it. I think you might stream it on Hulu. And then don't forget the 1970s. Nancy Drew Hardy Boys mysteries. Which show yesterday. Oh her her. Sean Cassidy Parker Stevens and Pamela Sue Martin. I

Lucy Neptune  17:58

was gonna say Pamela Sue Martin. We idolized her. I loved her. I loved her and I do remember Shawn casting his feathered hair. Yes. I think that was my first rock and roll album. But we digress.

Evelyn Archer  18:08

Yes. So but even in the 70s they couldn't let me ask you to have her own vehicle. It had to be the Hardy Boys as well. Yeah. And for my money. One of the best long lasting successes of of Nancy Drew in media has been the her interactive games they've had 33, Nancy Drew point and click PC games. If you are into this, I highly recommend them. They are absolutely excellent. Do

Lucy Neptune  18:39

they all coincide with the books? Are they separate? Um,

Evelyn Archer  18:43

sometimes they're related, especially in the earlier ones. But mostly they are standalone. But they absolutely could be Nancy Drew. Many of them absolutely could be a Nancy Drew book. It starts with secrets can kill in 1998. And the most recent one is midnight in Salem that came out in 2019. And there's actually one of my favorites is actually truly based on a couple of they kind of mash up a couple of old Nancy Drew's together. And it's called Secret of the old clock and it is one that is done in 1939. Like during the time the first Nancy Drew books were written together

Lucy Neptune  19:25

and it's kind of

Evelyn Archer  19:26

a mash you can get them on and get them on Steam. You can download them from her interactive comm I highly recommend them. But and one of the things that's great about it, and I think one of the reasons why it's so popular, or was so popular. You've net u 33. Games, you never see her face. Hmm. It's always first person you are and if you ever do see her, if it's a third, if it's a third person kind of camera view. You can see her shadow Like as she's walking, which looks like the kind of iconic of Nancy Drew bending over with the magnifying glass, or you can just see like the back of her coat but like you never ever see her face, which is really really genius. But some of them are really. Oh my god very Nancy Drew personal favorites is the curse of Blackmoor Manor, where you come to this manor in England because a friend of the family is there and she's married into this. Rich landed gentry family. The husband is away on business. She's there in this big creepy house with her, like Sister in law, and her her stepdaughter, and something is happening to her she's, you know, taken to her bed and won't let anybody see her. And is she turning into a weird it's always a little bit Scooby Doo, especially in the beginning, like, what is this? Maybe supernatural thing, and then you pull the mask off. And it's just, you know, it's old man, Otis and meddling kids, but they're really, really great. And as the as they go on there, they get a little bit more sophisticated. Midnight, and Salem was pretty good. There's like some hold. We're not here to talk about this. There's some drama with that. But one of the questions that I have is why is that? Right? Why do I mean Sherlock Holmes has been around for longer, but not that much longer in the lifespan like he was late 19th century 1880s. I want to say I'd have to look it up. That's right. And the Nancy Drew book started, I believe, in 1939, which is, you know, that's like 50 years. So he's got a 50 year jump on her, but proportionally, proportionally, it feels off. And I think there's an easy answer, which is absolutely true. But not the whole thing of, you know, girls will watch stuff with boys, his main characters, but boys won't watch stuff with girls, his main characters, this is a kind of everybody knows thing in publishing and TV. Like, if you want to have something universal, it has to be a male main character. But if you want it to be specifically for girls, and I think that Nancy Drew is really seen, especially from the beginning as something that is specifically for girls, and it's been gendered in a particular way, which is why I think that the new CW series, Nancy Drew, listen, everybody needs to get on watching this right now. Everybody, listeners, please watch Nancy Drew on the CW, because I love it with my whole heart and I wanted to have five seasons in a movie. And even this is there's no buzz. Like, I don't see anything about it on Twitter. I don't see anything about it on people who talk about TV. Like, how come this doesn't have the buzz that Riverdale has or other like T and they're not quite teens? I don't know. What are they like? They feel like early 20s like very late teens or very early 20s. But the teens are watching it. That's 14 Odd it's 14 audience but Nancy Drew in The CW series. Don't sleep on this people for real.

Lucy Neptune  23:05

It's super cute, really fun, but like you need to have good jumpscare pairs.

Evelyn Archer  23:11

But this is a Nancy Drew that's been aged up. And this kind of goes towards something that I have a theory. Do you want to hear my theory? Tell

Lucy Neptune  23:21

me your theory, please.

Evelyn Archer  23:22

Okay. Besides the gender stuff, which is always a play? I think I'd posit that there is a perceived wholesomeness to Nancy Drew, that is hard to a hump. That's hard to get over. for a modern audience. I feel like there. It's not entirely accurate. But I think it's how people see her. She is nice and white. Well, I mean, Sherlock Holmes is white too. But she's nice and friendly and wholesome. And Nancy Drew wouldn't curse and Nancy Drew wouldn't, you know, do anything wrong? And but the thing is, that's actually it in terms of the books at least, that was a retcon. In the 60s, say that word again. retcon. With it means that they kind of changed. They changed your character in the 60s. Before the 60s, like in the 30s and 40s. Might have been 50s. When they did it, I'd have to look into the Stratemeyer Syndicate stuff. But the Nancy Drew's of the 1930s and 40s was a lot edgier than we remember, she carried a gun. She didn't trust cops, like she was going to take care of this problem herself because she knew that the cops were either corrupt or incompetent. She didn't just drive a car her daddy bought her. She could basically rebuild that engine from nothing like you forget driving the car and now 1939 is very different than driving a car now. And then in the 60s, you know, lots of girls were reading her first wave feminism is beginning. They're like, Ooh, maybe she shouldn't be carrying the gun and maybe she shouldn't. This is when she became Titian haired they made her a redhead instead of a blonde and change the color of the Roadster. Those are small things. There's some things that they did in the retcon that are good. They removed a lot of the racist language. If you go back to those 1930s books, there is a lot of era appropriate, straight up racist depictions of people like Hannah ruin the housekeeper. So they made the housekeeper white in the 1960s, where she sounds white in the 1960s. They didn't have her speaking of dialect, which was cringy. And there were some depictions that were not cool. And those are good changes. I mean, there's also an argument to be made that that is actually what we were like, and it's kind of important for us to face that. But that's a different conversation. But like, like I said, she didn't trust cops, she carried a gun, she could fix her own car and run an entire household because her mom had died. Side note, Mother lessness seems to be a core thing with Nancy Drew that I think would be interesting to explore, like, does the mother have to be absent in order for her to have the freedom of freedom of movement that she has? Is every case she solves just another way of her looking for her mother. Please see Kelly links fantastic short story, the girl detective for more on that does the

Lucy Neptune  26:37

short story also I'd seed so then I'm thinking of Veronica Mars because I'm halfway through

Evelyn Archer  26:41

Veronica Mars is Nancy Drew. This is updated. Nancy Drew? Oh, absolutely. I

Lucy Neptune  26:46

was gonna say how do they compare and there's something they're the same.

Evelyn Archer  26:49

They are the same. They're Nancy Drew is Nancy Drew noir

Lucy Neptune  26:54

but right because the wholesomeness factor is kind of there, because we have Kristen Bell who's very cute and sweet. We can tell but there are a factor

Evelyn Archer  27:03

but I think that they would not have been able, but it does give her that edge if they'd still called her Nancy Drew. Right. I don't think anybody would have bought it.

Lucy Neptune  27:12

But even when I watch it, I know that there it's not wholesomeness first, you know, not

Evelyn Archer  27:21

it's, it's not she's not wholesome.

Lucy Neptune  27:24

Right. I'm thinking of the new Nancy Drew series on she's

Evelyn Archer  27:28

awesome. Either she has mental problems and a sixth life like oh, yeah, it's a very new Nancy Drew.

Lucy Neptune  27:34

But the look and feel of that show is different than the look and feel Veronica Mars. On Mars feels more gritty. I guess for

Evelyn Archer  27:44

like fielder we're at it feels more like Philip Marlowe, Sam Spade, those kinds of San Francisco detectives.

Lucy Neptune  27:52

And they don't have like the CW version of Nancy Drew has more like supernatural kind of which elements to the case. It has absolutely supernatural

Evelyn Archer  28:02

elements, which I think is a really interesting device to get over that wholesomeness hump. Because when you are taking a mystery, and Veronica Mars is like the opposite of the supernatural. Right, right. When you're taking something very rational, like mystery solving, and putting it up against something like ghosts and curses, I think something really interesting happens. Because it's they're pulling on each other in a really interesting way. I think it's why I love the Lovecraft, Sherlock Holmes mashups so much. There's a beautiful short story by Neil Gaiman called A Study in Emerald. And what's interesting is that Sherlock Holmes being the most rational minded character in the world, when faced with a Lovecraftian, horror, none of his tricks will work. Because this is a completely non rational entity and experience. And I think that's, I think that's particularly interesting. I think it's really interesting.

Lucy Neptune  29:12

Take us take us one step further into it like you don't We don't have to go into that. But like, what, what does he do? Does he feel at a loss then? Does he know, his depths does? He

Evelyn Archer  29:25

does know, he's out of his depth and a bit of an existential crisis. Now, there's a there's a couple of different versions of this. And one of the reasons why I think gaming is so moving and successful is because it acknowledges that there's, I thought I wrote it down, but I did not. There is a couple of anthologies of Lovecraftian homes, okay, stuff that you know, are kind of interesting. They kind of treated the way the CW treats it where it's like, well, he just acknowledges that this is a thing that exists and He's going to investigate it, which is also interesting. I just think that in study and emerald, it really is. And I don't want to give anything away. But no, no, you should go and read it. Yes. But what he finds out what Sherlock Holmes finds out, shakes everything that he knows to be true. Oh, right. And he does not. You know what he deals with it as well as he possibly can as well as he's equipped for it. That's what I would say.

Lucy Neptune  30:30

Yeah. So this, I think this is interesting. And it's interesting, because this is part of our big Venn diagram here on witches indicates is the mystery and going towards the mystery and what you bring what you know, but it is may not be enough to kind of solve the mystery or understand the mystery or process the mystery and even know how to live within the mystery. Exactly, exactly. When you have to kind of navigate this. And so and when you go beyond what you know, then you may well want some magic, need some magic, find some magic

Evelyn Archer  31:04

and see to me, that's where it gets really interesting. Like, I love a full on murder mystery as much as the next guy I really do. But when it really hits me is this is specifically a mystery structure. With deep, deeply weird, supernatural elements. I don't let the cutesy ones where it's like, I'm a witch that runs a clothing store. And I'm going to No, I'm bored already. I'm bored. You're not weird enough, be weirder. There are a couple that I can think of that are very weird, but I'm gonna save those for another podcast. But there is something about that, that I think is really fascinating, and really kind of jumps up and down on all of my personal spots of it's like, the mystery store. And I'm talking specifically about books. The Mysteries structure is so specific and strong, there is not enough for my money. There's not a stronger structure, narrative structure out there. And what's great about it is that it is so strong. You can use it to talk about a lot of different things and different mystery authors have chosen to you know, talk about different stuff PD James talks a lot about class in her novels, Louise Penny, and inspector ganache. She's talking about a lot of things about what makes a good person and what makes a community and more like really deep moral questions. But I like it the most when you have the kind of safety of the mystery story structure, but the elements of it are mind bendingly weird, the structure kind of keeps you up right? Through the story without letting you go love bananas. It's there some of my favorites. And there, there aren't enough of them. I'll put it that way. Maybe I should write some.

Lucy Neptune  33:14

I think that would be great. I mean, you have Well, that's the modesty

Evelyn Archer  33:17

brown book, for sure.

Lucy Neptune  33:19

I'm gonna say

Evelyn Archer  33:20

that's That's That's right, folks. You can buy the modesty brown books on Amazon. Or you can find on fabulous find out all about it my website at Ask Evelyn archer.com. That's ask Evelyn archer.com.

Lucy Neptune  33:30

We'll put it in the show notes,

Evelyn Archer  33:31

put it in the show notes. But I I don't think there are enough of them. And I think that that's part of the reason why is because the rational and the irrational, are hard to or hard to combine. It's tricky. It's tricky.

Lucy Neptune  33:47

So can I jump in with a segue here? So so we started kind of looking at this bracket and yes, in the spirit of rejecting brackets in general. Yeah, we're not going to parse through the whole thing. A bracket is a male, a male construct, I think are the percent. Yeah, it's it's a capitalist. Very brave. Yeah. It's very bro. He's the best and who would win in a fight? Yeah, all that kind of thing. And so I found some of the pairings wrong, but I was as so

Evelyn Archer  34:21

many hearings are arbitrary.

Lucy Neptune  34:24

I guess so

Evelyn Archer  34:26

honestly, I think that they do not pay the people who make these up enough to sit down and think deeply about how they're going to do this. They did it randomly.

Lucy Neptune  34:33

I don't know if they did or not. I mean, I'm pretty sure that the thing I did like so. So Evelyn here is is a resident expert on these matters. And I am a enthusiastic what's the word? Apprentice perhaps. So I was familiar with some but definitely not all of the detectors here. So what I enjoyed doing was looking everybody up, just to kind of get a general sense

Evelyn Archer  35:00

About money that's actually what these brackets are good for.

Lucy Neptune  35:03

So that's a good thing to me. That's the point is Coffin Ed Johnson and Grave Digger Jones and who is Alan Grant Seibert to black New York police detectives stories set in the 1950s versus Alan Grant Scotland Yard detective

Evelyn Archer  35:20

who's the Alan Grant book? Alan Grant the name of the book.

Lucy Neptune  35:24

Let's find him Alan Grant.

Evelyn Archer  35:26

Oh, Alan Grant. That's some Josephine Tay, isn't it? That's the guy with the broken leg. That's Yes, not Brett for our that's her other book. Just being FinTech t y TTY,

Lucy Neptune  35:38

a pseudonym used by Elizabeth Mackintosh, a Scottish author. Yes. Daughter of time.

Evelyn Archer  35:43

Daughter of  times really good too.

Lucy Neptune  35:46

Yeah, so that is Alan Grant. Well, he's not

Evelyn Archer  35:49

an all of them. He's only in one. He's not in the series. Okay. As far as I know.

Lucy Neptune  35:53

Okay. So there are several. But that's her most famous one. Yeah. So there's several characters that I was not familiar with. So I was I enjoyed looking them up. I enjoyed learning that a majority of the detectives that were put into the bracket, were written by female authors. Hmm. That's pretty great, too.

Evelyn Archer  36:17

And they had more women detectives and more non white detectives than I was expecting from Washington Post.

Lucy Neptune  36:23

Yes. And so I was very interested. I started reading about them and I became most interested as a place to kind of dive in with Blanche white.

Evelyn Archer  36:33

And that's Barbara Neely, right? Yes. Barbara Neely is fantastic. Tell us about Barbara Barbara Neely is incredibly prolific. And writes. I think she's still around. I believe she passed. Oh, sad. Sorry, Barbara. Rest empowered Barbara Neely. She read a bunch of different mysteries. But she's she's just great.

Lucy Neptune  36:58

Yes, she died March 2020. Oh,

Evelyn Archer  37:01

so not that long ago. Not too long ago. She has vampire books. She has

Lucy Neptune  37:07

detective books.

Evelyn Archer  37:10

She's really good. Like, she's, it's this. She's this is not a schlock author. This is not somebody who's just crank. I mean, she can crank them out. But she's not just cranking them out. Like, what's her name? She did the romance novels.

Lucy Neptune  37:24

It'll come to me. Oh, Barbara. Cartwright. That's

Evelyn Archer  37:27

not your thinking. Barbara Cartland? No, that's just romance. This is it'll come to me. It'll come to me. But that's all right. But she wrote a whole bunch of mysteries and a whole bunch of room. Her romances are pretty good. This author's name I can't think of. But her mysteries are terrible like somebody did. They're just terrible. Like every time it's like, oh, it's the son. He wanted the inheritance. Oh, it's the son. He wanted the inheritance. Oh, like every book after book after book after book. It's so boring. So Barbara Neely,

Lucy Neptune  37:58

Barbara, nearly so I have I dived I dove. What's the right word? Dove. I dove in. I'm diving in to Blanche on the lamb, which I've never read, which is the first book of her Blanche white

Evelyn Archer  38:12

series. Tell me about Blanche white. Blanche White

Lucy Neptune  38:15

is an African American woman, who is she works primarily as a domestic helper Cook, house servant in the more modern era. And she does it knowingly, that it's a throwback to older times, but she is able to she understands the trope within which she enters and uses it to her personal advantage. And when circumstances ask her to, to solve the mystery at hand. So she uses her kind of

Evelyn Archer  39:01

when it is set.

Lucy Neptune  39:02

It's set. So this book, she mentioned the.com. Era, so it's published. It was published in 1992.

Evelyn Archer  39:12

Okay, so probably contemporary to the 90s. Right.

Lucy Neptune  39:18

So she uses people's racist and lowered expectations for her to pass under the radar. Marple styles. Yeah. And so the interesting thing with this so far, I haven't finished yet, but I'm about two thirds of the way through, and it's fantastic in several ways. So it opens with her facing a judge in court. And what has happened is that two of her employers stiffed her and so she couldn't cover money so she wrote some bad checks. And now this has happened to her before and so the judge is really going to teach her lesson now in sentences her to 30 days in jail, and the matron takes her off to you She says I have to use the bathroom. So she goes in to the bathroom and she's sitting there. And you know, thinking about everything. And then a commotion happens out in the hall. And it's the town, let's say accountant, some kind of accounting person who's embezzled money. And she's thinking like, Oh, this guy is probably going to get off and I'm going to go to jail for 30 days for you know, a $50. Check. And she escapes. And because the commotion goes off into the person who was supposed to, you know, drag her off to the jail. Yeah, is just distracted. And so she escaped. So she's Blanche on the limb right from the get Wow. And she's walking,

Evelyn Archer  40:39

that she's how potations Oh, yes. You got like a black woman? Yes. Who wants it? Who's get it?

Lucy Neptune  40:46

That's page one. We're, we're right. In my black belt. Yep. It's a blanches walking away from the county courthouse thinking, Okay, I just did this. Okay. All right, what now, and she remembers the address of a place where she was supposed to maybe go work at some point. And so she's like, I'm just gonna start walking towards that street. And she's just figuring things out. And so it ends up she arrives at this address in the woman's like, Oh, there you are. We've been waiting for you and come in because we have to get to the country house right now. Baba Baba. And so she kind of gets whisked into this family situation. And, you know, soft shoes her way past, you know that she is the woman from the, from the agency that was supposed to be there. And so she ends up going off with this family to the country house. So that's her escape route. So at first, the story is about Blanche, you know, escaping her kind of fate to go to jail and figuring it out. And then while she's there, things start to happen with the family that she's like, well, that's odd. And what is that? And wait, a person died? What? So she starts solving their mystery. And then so it becomes about so it starts off as like, you know, fugitive on the run, then it becomes fugitive solving a different mystery, and then I'll send like someone dies, so she feels threatened. And so is she in the house with someone who's dangerous, it becomes these different stories. Wow. All all like all of a sudden you're like, oh, shit, this Oh, shit. Now it's this. Now it's this My God. And she has she she reads the signs as well. She talks about being able to read a house and seeing like, you know, little details in a house that tell her about people. And she watches the people kind of play their games. And in terms of, you know, well, now this woman is going to pretend to be interested in me. Yeah. And do the performative you know, you know, do you have family Blanche? And, you know, at what point, are you actually connecting with someone, are you not? And, and she also has, like, she can tell when someone's entering the room or coming in, like, you know, kind of the hair on the back of her neck will stand up, and she knows someone's there. And there's also

Evelyn Archer  42:59

these back comes from many years of working as, as in domestic work?

Lucy Neptune  43:03

Oh, yes, definitely. And let's see, let's say I have to find a good selection. There's something wonderful that happens as well. She Barbara nearly writes her tasks. So we see what Blanche is doing. And so she will be Oh, she takes, you know, half a cup of buttermilk and puts it in there. What does that guy mean when he says that? And you know, so she's solving the mystery and cooking at the same time, which is an honor to women everywhere, right? Or Is anyone?

Evelyn Archer  43:35

Also I'd like to interject and say that is a bog standard narrative device. It is called the talking head avoidance syndrome, where if you have a kind of inner monologue or something that has to happen in dialogue, you have to give them something to do. And you have to make sure that that something that they're doing is related thematically, or reveal something of their character or whatever. And that is a very excellent deployments of talking head avoidance fads is what we call them talking head avoidance.

Lucy Neptune  44:09

All right, we have learned, right, so it's, for example, she quickly ran the vacuum cleaner over the living room floor, period. But why was the sheriff here if he wasn't looking for her question, Mark,

Evelyn Archer  44:19

you don't have to say question mark.

Lucy Neptune  44:20

I know. I know.

Evelyn Archer  44:22

Reading we get it. Trust us.

Lucy Neptune  44:26

Be so lovely. And there's also... let's see. There's another. Oh, there's this wonderful thing. She had this wonderful cousin when she was a girl who I want to get the name right. She gave her a name. Night Magic or night something was this beautiful series. She's like sitting on the back porch Night Night Magic. myself.

Evelyn Archer  45:56

I don't know how you read on your phone. That would that drives me crazy. It drives me crazy.

Lucy Neptune  46:04

Yeah, but her cousin, you know, says because she is a darker skinned woman. Usually, like they're just jealous of you because you have the night in you. Some people have daytime in them. But you have the night and you have magic and you have and it's this wonderful gift that she kind of sits and remembers there's this lovely passage at the end of the day, before she goes to bed. She sits and she remembers and you know, the night kind of comes towards her and she can run around and be invisible and well and

Evelyn Archer  46:33

I do think that what that does is that kind of intersects with what we're talking about in general. But this podcast is like, how that kind of witchiness kind of intersects with the rational of a detective story. And the little m mystery of you know, who killed Mr. So and so and the big M mystery of racism? Or the big M mystery of capitalism or the big M mystery of what happens to us after we die? What is my place in the world? Like? Those are the big mysteries, or like even Nancy Drew like I think a lot about her mother lessness and how is every is the reason she became a detective? Because she's looking for her mother. Right? And every case is just her enacting, looking for her mother who is gone forever and trying to wrestle with that big M mystery. Right? I think that's very interesting. Right? Editing can also do night girl night girl

Lucy Neptune  47:39

I found the passage: the night wrapped itself lovingly around her limbs some long locked door creaked open almost wide enough for her to see inside to remember how it was she knew the night so well and felt so very comfortable in it. And she remembers night girl her cousin tells her Of course they tease you them kids is just as jealous of you as they can be. They're jealous because you got the night and use some people got night in them some got morning others like me and your mama got dusk but it's only them that's got night can become invisible. Oh, wow. So

Evelyn Archer  48:12

yeah, that's lovely. And what a great superpower for a detective to has is invisibility.

Lucy Neptune  48:19

Absolutely. And she says it was then she'd become night girls slipping out of the house late at night to roam around her neighborhood unseen. She'd sometimes stop beside an overgrown azalea and learn from deep earnest voices of neighborhood deaths and fights wages gambled away like so she was kind of listening and taking in the neighborhood. And then she knew things. And she said this prior knowledge that convinced blanches mother that her child had second sight. Yeah. And

Evelyn Archer  48:43

yeah, that is second sight. Yeah, that is a there's a lovely bit in a Terry Pratchett book about a young witch. The Tiffany Aching books. And they say of Tiffany Aching. She's a witch. She's got the first site. Oh, don't you mean second site? No, she's got the first site. She can look at something and see what it is. That's much more important. First site and second thoughts is what Tiffany Aiken has. And that's a really lovely, and it's a great suit. Like I said, it's a great superpower for detective to have Miss Marple has it? Old women have it that's going to be another episode where we talk about crone figures as detectives. And I think that's interesting that being a black domestic in in certain contexts, you are invisible, but then it would seem to me that in other context, you're all too visible. Yes. And you are really going to stand out. But in certain there is a thing where the people that you work for will talk about you like we'll talk as if you are not there as if you are furniture, which can feel dehumanizing. I'm quite sure. But I like that she can take that and be like all right. Well, if you're going to be like this, if you're going to do this, then I'm going to use it. Yes. Does she have more than one book? Yes.

Lucy Neptune  50:07

There are four in the series. Oh, good.

Evelyn Archer  50:09

And then that means that she gets off of her charges and doesn't end up in jail and in trouble. So I feel good about I feel better now. I

Lucy Neptune  50:17

feel better. Yes,

Evelyn Archer  50:18

yes. That's crazy. And those are

Lucy Neptune  50:22

Blanche on the landline show the Blanche white series by Barbara Neely. First ones Blanche on the lam. So

Evelyn Archer  50:28

Barbara Neely is prolific and great. And I did not realize she had passed away. And now that you say that, though, I do remember that. Now that I mentioned it. But yeah, she's great. She's great.

Lucy Neptune  50:38

Yes. So there were several other detectives I have not yet read. Oh, precious. A go back. One precious. The number one lady detectives agency

Evelyn Archer  50:48

Ramazzotti. Yeah, that was a really it was one of my brackets came up with precious remote sway. And Maisie Dobbs. And that was a really hard call for me. Because I love them both.

Lucy Neptune  51:00

This is interesting. I see. So you're right, that it was a random bracket. Yeah, they're gonna be Well, the way. Adam Dalgliesh

Evelyn Archer  51:08

Well, the way that it seems to me that it worked is that they gave you like, a bunch of pairs to start with, right. And then you picked one, right? And then the ones that you pick? Yeah, and yeah, those in Nebraska. Okay, so the ones are first level, no. And then the ones you know, wasn't my first level, but like, eventually because, you know, precious and somebody else and I pick precious and Maisie and somebody else, and I pick Maisie so eventually, they were on the bracket together and that broke my heart. And one of the things I did think was interesting was that when I looked at where all the detectives fell, with all of their information from all the people who've done the bracket, I was surprised that Philip Marlowe was dead last. And I think it's because he doesn't have a special he doesn't have a show on acorn. He doesn't have a show on britbox. And Vera Stanhope ones are good too. I like though she was on there. Vera Stanhope is good. But like I often wonder, like when you're talking about who's the best detective, do you mean? Who's the best? Or who's your favorite? Right? Like, what

Lucy Neptune  52:11

are your What are your criteria?

Evelyn Archer  52:13

What are your criteria? And the thing is these kinds of brackets aren't for that they're right to you know, remind you of books that you had forgotten that you liked or introduce you to books that you might their commercials. And I think that that's we're all down with and I love that article locks book was on there. She's an author. I like I haven't read that particular book, but I voted for it even Yes.

Lucy Neptune  52:34

Well, yes. No, I have several on my list now. So I want to read about Isaiah Quinn. Tabi black genius teenager private detective from Long Beach, California. Yes. Everything. And that's coming out as a show. I believe it's got optioned Joe Ide. Is that how you spell the last name? Ide?

Evelyn Archer  52:53

Yeah, I don't know those.

Lucy Neptune  52:55

And then Henry Rios Latino gay criminal defense lawyer in LA. Oh, everything. Who else do we have Nina Guerrero of FBI special agent. I want to know these are in Darren Matthews, Texas Ranger.

Evelyn Archer  53:12

Michael Black, Texas. Oh, wow, the Rios mysteries. What really makes me excited about Henry Rios is that there? Are looks like nine books. So that's exciting. I always get excited when when I can get into a series and like no, there's like 15 books you're all set. Now the fact that he is a public defender I think that's great. But the lawyers the ones don't usually do it for me. Okay for me, so that might be one that I skip unless I'm not going to throw myself on lawyer grenade. I'll let you throw yourself on that lawyer grenade.

Lucy Neptune  53:49

I do. I do like a bit of a lawyer. I did like the Perry Mason reboot on HBO

Evelyn Archer  53:54

for example. I heard that was really good. But that's not like a regular lawyer. But now

Lucy Neptune  53:58

that's Well it starts before he becomes the lawyer when he's still the investigator for a lawyer so Wiggins as an investigator then how he becomes this that's pretty clear. Yeah, so that was kind of a

Evelyn Archer  54:09

fun journey. The legal drama doesn't really write legal drama and I also with a very few exceptions these days I cannot read mysteries with cops in them. Hmm. Armande Gamanche is the only cop I can read because they're different but yeah, I can't with cops right now. Like I can't with Tana French right now. I can't with and she's great Tana  French is fantastic. But a lot of cops man. And I just can't look at cops. Like I have like theories about you know, this whole thing. Oh, sorry. That I believe that. What we see in media is a kind of mirror to what we're going through, like Golden Age, the gold Golden Age mysteries. happened in England, between World War One and World War Two when everything was really really fucked up. And those books are all about order. The sand spades and the Dashiell Hammett's in America came after World War Two, when everything was broken, and nobody knew what anything looked like anymore. And that's definitely what those books show. I theorize that post pandemic, and this will probably take a year or two to happen. I think that we are going to see more. I think we're going to see Gothic stories, I think we're going to see haunted houses. And I think we are going to see a retool revamp of the cozy mystery genre. cozy mysteries are great. I like them very much. This might be for another podcast, but they are so overly reliant on gender stereotypes. They're overly what they feel like even the ones that just came out last year, feel like they were written 1520 years ago, and there don't seem to be young. With few exceptions. There don't seem to be a lot of young authors writing these. And I wonder if we're going to see a retool revamp of a different kind of cozy mystery. That's, that's a theory just as uncertain as everything is. I think that's why in recent years, we've had the rise of the female domestic thriller. And that says something. And

Lucy Neptune  56:36

we have a lot of supernatural kind of shows that have a multi ethnic, multiracial cast like Lovecraft country, which did not get renewed. Right, we had watchman we had did

Evelyn Archer  56:56

not get renewed the umbrella. Umbrella Academy had me a little bit diverse, not super diverse, but also not getting super buzz. It's not it's not that kind of stuff is not reaching people. Now. That's not because it's not a great show. I think there's a lot and I'm not thinking of shows, I'm thinking of books, right? So which is a different thing,

Lucy Neptune  57:19

right? The joke with my sister and I is Did you read that? I saw I saw the movie. And she rolls her eyes.

Evelyn Archer  57:27

Oh, my God, read a book. I am on your phone.

Lucy Neptune  57:30

I know. I wanted to read it in time for this. It's

Evelyn Archer  57:35

you don't rush. You didn't have to read that whole book and talk

Lucy Neptune  57:38

in it. But I wanted to get it get it in me as it were and and so here I am without on my phone. But like

Evelyn Archer  57:45

I'm always like making predictions. But I do think that because things have been so unstable. For so long. I think that we are craving something low stakes. Sorry about that. So Watson is here. We're craving something low stakes, but yet not quite. So like I said, over reliant on gender stereotypes like, and really gross things like even ones that like just came out a couple of years ago that would just make me shut. You're gonna have to put him down because he's gonna get up in your face and put his claws in you. Yeah, I tried to warn you. I tried to warn you. Yeah, yeah, that's my whole life. Just so you know. That's my whole life. I know. He's a whole lot. He's got a lot of big. He's a big boy. But like as we are in trauma, and terror. I feel like one of the things that I think is interesting about mystery novels. This is an anecdote I can't find the source for it. So you know what if you came to this podcast looking for facts and science, you have definitely come to the wrong place. This is just us talking door down next door down, please. But there was a study done they were talking about stress, right? And what to do about you know, if you're stressed out if you're stressed out what to do. And they found that one of the most stressful things a person can do is essentially lay down in a bathtub with cucumber slices on your eyes going Relax, relax, relax, relax, Irene. These cats really want to be part of this podcast right

Lucy Neptune  59:20

now, though they are they are there in it. But what they found

Evelyn Archer  59:22

actually did do things like lower heart rates and actually physically made you relax, was watching things or reading things like watching things on TV like law and order. Reading cozy mystery novels, where it's that structure man that I talked about before, and it's different enough to keep your attention. But the structure is always the same. So you're riding along in this beautiful, like rocking, rocking motion of the clues In the suspects in this stuff and act to the guy you think that did it actually got murdered again. And so there's the end. I think that instead of what we have been seeing in terms of mystery novels, which is very dark domestic thrillers gritty police stuff. I think we're done with that for a while. I think we're not going to be into that. But I think that we still as a culture really are deeply craving that kind of Sure. And that kind of care. Surely a mystery novel. And bring to you have Yeah, I think that's that's my that's your Biblio therapy corner.

Lucy Neptune  1:00:42

Do you want to draw a tarot card for us?

Evelyn Archer  1:00:44

I would our peril card.

Lucy Neptune  1:00:46

Oh, and do we want to do a deck of the week?

Evelyn Archer  1:00:50

Oh, who's our ticket? Who's our deck of the week this week? Oh, I've got one. Yes, go ahead. Our deck of the week this week is Richard Branson. The billionaire who took all of his money to measure his dick in space against Jeff Bezos, when he could have taken that money and cleaned all the water in Flint, Michigan. Dick of the week, Richard Branson. I mean, it could be Elon Musk he stick of the week every week.

Lucy Neptune  1:01:18

Yeah, I was also going to say the the English soccer fans who? Oh, the face the murals of the young, the young players who missed their penalty kicks, I'm sure would have been the heroes you know, obviously if they made it. But yes.

Evelyn Archer  1:01:36

Oh, yeah, they are also dicks of the week. are the guys that defaced the hooligans? Yes, racist. Hooligans.

Lucy Neptune  1:01:46

Yes, Marcus Rashford. And other fine players I can remember and one of the kids is a 19 year old player and you know, of course broke into tears after he missed it. But I must say that his teammates were lovely to see because they instantly grabbed them. Like they didn't care that they just lost the you know, final. They were like, instantly grabbed those guys are like, no, no, no, like, we love you. You're fine. It's okay to get like there. That was the first thing they all did instead of like us if I

Evelyn Archer  1:02:12

had lesser ship right there. Yeah. So our card of this week is Wheel of Fortune, Fortune fortune. Wheel of Fortune is just like what it sounds like, it's, you're up, you're down. Good luck, bad luck. Who knows. But the wheel, she keeps on turning. And sometimes you're on top of the wheel, and sometimes you're underneath the wheel. And if you're underneath the wheel, you'll come back around again. And if you're on top, prepare yourself to go back under. That's how so keep that in mind listeners as you go forward into your week. And I hope that you find lots of great books to read lots of great mystery shows to watch lots of good spells to cast.

Lucy Neptune  1:03:00

All that you are seeking is also seeking you all that

Evelyn Archer  1:03:03

you're seeking is also seeking you that our

Lucy Neptune  1:03:07

therapist told me that once Oh, but I don't think she made it up. I think it came from Eastern religion somewhere. I'll track it down.

Evelyn Archer  1:03:14

All that is seeking all that you are seeking is also seeking you. That sounds fake. That sounds fake. That sounds totally vague.

Lucy Neptune  1:03:25

Like like some therapy bullshit. That

Evelyn Archer  1:03:26

sounds like some bullshit to me. But I was like, that sounds like white people nonsense to me.

Lucy Neptune  1:03:32

I'm gonna Google it. Right. All that seeking is also seeking you. That's a Rumi quote. That tracks Yes. That's a Rumi quote. So that's a part of the week.

Evelyn Archer  1:03:48

Well guys, this is Evelyn Archer,

Lucy Neptune  1:03:51

and Lucy Neptune reading. Thank you.

Evelyn Archer  1:03:53

Thank you. And we are a signing off. We'll see you next week. Keep those cards and letters come in.

Evelyn Archer  00:00

You've been listening to Witches and Dicks. Rate, review and subscribe to activate the tracking spell. It feeds the algorithm and helps new listeners find us. Leave us a five star review and we'll read it on the air. Send any and all correspondence to Witches and Dicks. That's witchesanddicks@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. 

Witches and Dicks is a Harlow Gold Production with NancyLu Studios. To any extent that it was written, it was written by Lucy Neptune and Evelyn Archer. That's me.  You can find Lucy on Instagram at @LucyNeptuneWND. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram @evelynarches. You can book a Tarot reading with me at askevelynarcher.com and you can buy my books, The Strange Files of Modesty Brown, on Amazon and Smashwords. 

Our audio engineer is Nancy Lu herself. Our logo was created by Alex Zapata. Music by pretty sleepy on Pixabay. Transcript by otter AI. Special thanks to Allan Lewis for IT and moral support.  This podcast brought to you by The Fool card, public libraries and too many candles.