It's Freedom Being Terrifying

In which we discuss the great and powerful Slavic folklore crone, Baba Yaga, her house on chicken feet out in the woods, the mercurial ways in which you will learn about yourself if you go up to her house, and why she's life goals on Instagram. We also consider crone detectives, especially Gladys Mitchell's Mrs. Bradley Mysteries, and wee bit of climate panic. Recorded August 11, 2021.
 
Card of the Week: The Hermit

Witch of the week, Elka Shuman Bread & Puppet theater

Evelyn Archer: askevelynarcher.com @evelynarches on IG & Twitter

Lucy Neptune: @lucyneptunewnd on IG

• Respite Road - Nancy’s indie film she was in and did costumes for 
• The House with Chicken Legs by Sophie Anderson
• Women and Other Monsters by Jess Zimmerman
• Hairpin
• ElectricLit
• Marissa Clifford article in Vice
• Ask Baba Yaga, Taisi Kitiskya
• The Burning Girls & other stories, Veronica Schanoes
• Deathless, Catherynne M. Valente
• Hadestown
• Mother Goose nursery rhymes cover (Marguerite de Angeli)
• Rosalie Sorrels
• Lenormand cards
• NPR childrearing Arctic circle article
• Toxic masculinity ruins the party once again
• Mrs. Bradley Mysteries
  • Show and Books
• Yubaba

Logo by Alex Zapata
Music by Prettysleepy on Pixabay
Transcript by Otter AI
Public Library Association

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

EPISODE FOUR: IT'S FREEDOM BEING TERRIFYING

Tue, 4/5 12:27PM • 1:05:45

TRANSCRIPTION BY OTTER AI. 100% ACCURACY NOT GUARANTEED. EMAIL witchesanddicks@gmail.com

Lucy Neptune  00:01

There's something a bit supernatural about detectives.

Evelyn Archer  00:04

 And there's a bit of the private dick in a witch.

Lucy Neptune  00:06

Veronica Mars removes hexes.

Evelyn Archer  00:08

Willow Rosenberg solves crimes.

Lucy Neptune  00:10

I'm Lucy Neptune.

Evelyn Archer  00:11

I'm Evelyn Archer.

Lucy Neptune  00:12

We're coming to you live to tape from unceded Narragansett and Wampanoag land.

Evelyn Archer  00:17

 And we're here to have a little chinwag about witches, private dicks, and the place where the "Little m" mystery meets up with the "Big M" Mystery. This is Witches and Dicks.

Evelyn Archer  00:00

Hi folks, it's Lucy and Evelyn coming to you from the future. We're preparing our season closer episode and we want to hear from you.

Lucy Neptune  00:08

You can ask us anything. Book recommendations baking problems, a mystery you just can't solve?

Evelyn Archer  00:14

Send your questions to witchesanddicks@gmail.com or hit us up on Instagram and @witchesanddicks. Let us be your Agony Aunts and you could hear your letter read on the air.

Lucy Neptune  00:03

All right, look at that precious baby. Look at her. She is in the glorious state of being on two bags at the same time with her body near two other bags.

Evelyn Archer  00:14

And also she can see both of us from her perspective her yes. That's very important for her. Yes, she's gonna see everybody and she

Lucy Neptune  00:22

can see in one of the bags as well which I think is exciting. So she likes she likes recording nights. Yeah, yes, we wake up Irene Adler.

Evelyn Archer  00:32

She loves company. Alright, so is that is that an action? Are we recording?

Lucy Neptune  00:36

We are We are home ready. All right.

Evelyn Archer  00:38

Welcome to Witches and Dicks, a podcast about murder mysteries, witchcraft and the intersection of the big mystery and the little mystery. I'm Evelyn Archer,

Lucy Neptune  00:47

and I'm Lucy Neptune 

Evelyn Archer  00:50

Lucy,

Lucy Neptune  00:57

Evelyn, 

Evelyn Archer

What's new? 

Lucy Neptune

Oh, goodness, what is new? I haven't even thought about what's new, because I'm so excited about what we're going to talk about. Oh, I don't know. We don't have to jump into it. But I'm just realized I had no I don't know I go to work. I go to work. I go to work. Like that's all. I do laundry, I go to work. I think

Evelyn Archer  01:16

you've got a movie. Don't you have a movie that you're starring in?

Lucy Neptune  01:19

It? I totally forgot the pandemic and my job. I've eaten a fair amount of my brain. Yes, my arm is going to be on the driving screen tomorrow stick driving at the Rustic Drive-in. Well, by the

Evelyn Archer  01:33

time this airs, it will be over. It will

Lucy Neptune  01:35

be, I believe, 930. Tomorrow night at the Rustic Drive-in and it is my friend, Michael Lo Cicero's Respite Road, which is a cabin in the woods thriller kind of a movie and I play the waitress and the opening scene, and I did the costumes. So I'm quite excited. That's very,

Evelyn Archer  01:55

that's very, that's very exciting. And we have our I'm excited for our drinks party. Yes. Saturday night. Another. Witch-tastic friends. Yeah, we're going to get together. Yeah. I mean, it's the world has become so small. You know, it has? Well, I have to say I'm feeling a lot better this time this week than I was last week. Yes. My energy levels are a little bit I think I was just really like, worn out from so much. Everything so much people and have you been watching and good even read anything? Good.

Lucy Neptune  02:31

Let's see. I did read a book. The house with chicken legs, which is quite nice. Yes. Anderson. Yes. I've finished season three of Veronica Mars and started season four. And I understand Season Four is not to be completed. Because it because of writer's strike back when. That's my watch. That's

Evelyn Archer  02:51

exciting. What have we been? We're still making our way through fringe. Excellent. It's so good. It's you can really see what what a post 911 Show it really is. It started in late 2009. So it's post post 911. And it's really lovely. It's it's complex in ways that I hadn't anticipated. And I also just finished it this morning, a book and I'm blanking on the author's name, but it's called Women and Other Monsters. Fantastic. You know, it's, it's, it's a little bit bloggie in tone like long form. Like, you know, on the internet, they'll be like, long reads like on medium. It's like, it's like that it's not like, super researched, or anything like that. But they're like cultural commentary essays based actually on a bunch of essays she did for if it wasn't electric lit, it was like the hairpin of the toast or something like that. And it was really excuse me, don't worry, everyone, it's just my consumption. I will be coughing myself to death under a bridge within the next 20 years, so don't worry about it. But I do think that it was appropriate for our topic today. Which is a Baba Yaga

Lucy Neptune  04:20

Oh my god. I'm so excited and so excited talking about my talk about Baba Yaga. So the tarot card that I chose. Yes, you talk about Guinness, Baba Yaga is the hermit and tell us about the card and

Evelyn Archer  04:35

the card of the hermit it is number nine in the Major Arcana. And it is a robed person with a long beard and a walking stick holding a lantern as he you know, walks along what looks like a snowy path and the hermit is the card that you get. Like if that card comes up in a reading for someone. One of the things I often think is okay, you've taken in enough outside information. You've done enough research, you've asked enough people their opinions, you have to go inside and figure out what you know is right or wrong. It also can be. It can also have an element of withdrawal of withdrawing from society in some way. And Baba Yaga is in fact, in her way a hermit Yes, who lives apart from society? I have a whole a whole thing here.

Lucy Neptune  05:32

Yes, let's let's establish

Evelyn Archer  05:34

her. Alright, those who may not know. So Baba Yaga

Lucy Neptune  05:37

pause for velcro. Picking my one marks.

Evelyn Archer  05:44

Baba Yaga comes to us from folktales from Russia. She is a kind of supernatural Crone who lives in the forest in a hut on chicken legs which which will keep its back to visitors unless you know the right depends on the story and the password or the riddle or whatever. And then it'll turn and let you in. And it is also it's surrounded by trees and offense of fiery eyed skulls. The story that we are most familiar with is probably going to be Vasilisa. The beautiful or Vasilisa wise depends on which one you you know what translation it's a Cinderella variant. That's our folklore term for these particular kinds of stories where she has an evil stepmother and some evil stepsisters, and they try to kill her and a bunch of different ways and none of it's working. And so they're like a hot I know. We'll send her to Baba Yaga's hut to get fire because we let the fire go out and hearth on purpose on purpose

Lucy Neptune  06:38

because we're bitches.

Evelyn Archer  06:40

We'll send it a Baba Yaga because, you know, we know that Baba Yaga will eat her up like a chicken so then there'll be no more boss, Lisa? Well, she goes to Baba Yaga’s hut. And instead of eating her like a chicken, Baba Yaga gives her you know, a bunch of impossible tasks, separate these puppy seeds from soil separate this, you know, rice from wheat, I think is one of them, do a bunch of housework in a short amount of time. And in some tales, she gets help from the magical doll, which I'm very interested in. Like to talk about that magical doll. And then she gets all of the impossible tasks done. And Baba Yaga gives her the fire to take back to her hut which probably explodes killing her terrible family lives and eventually marries a Tsar.  Sorry about it sisters. Sorry about it, sisters. And what's interesting to me about this and she's got images and in folklore, like when when you think of a witch, you're thinking of Baba Yaga. She has the hooks no version of her right, the clawed hands. She rides around in a mortar and pestle, which I think is wonderful. Yes. And uses a broom to get rid of the steps behind her. Yes, because she's very, very clever. And she is like a quintessential *witch cackle* Like that's yeah, that's the witch in the woods is Baba Yaga. Yeah. And she.  Here's what's interesting. From a film noirperspective. Every other character and folklore that I can think of what fairy tales are really good at? Is being unambiguous, right? Cinderella is unambiguously good. The wicked stepmother and Snow White is unambiguously bad. Now I'm talking about in the structure of the story. I'm a notorious stepmother apologist. Everyone knows this. But you know who's good, you know who's bad. There are characters who help characters who hurt but you know who everybody is, there is a general era of an ambiguous ness to everyone except Baba Yaga. And in any story, you don't know what it's going to be? Is she going to give you fire to take back to your terrible family and punish them and reward you? Or is she going to eat you? it could be either.  There's no way of knowing. And what interests me about this was my whole vibe here. I'm very interested in the fact that Baba Yaga went from in her inception, the kind of scariest story you could possibly tell to get a child to eat their vegetables, right? But Bob is going to come and take you away and you know, genuinely frightening villain. Today being life goals on Instagram. Like I see it on my feed all of the time. Right. And there was a really terrific article by Marissa Clifford on Vice that I used for some of my research chair and I think she says it absolutely best. Like, I mean, I'm just I joke about this all the time. They're like, oh, so what's going to be your post? COVID pivot I've just turned 50 years old, what's going to be your third out? You know, you're always thinking about that. I'm like, Well, I'm considering taking a job, living in a hut on chicken feet in the woods and asking you to do impossible tasks. That's going to be my job. And what she says is the image of the old woman living in the woods, doing whatever she wants all day long continues to be my dream for myself. Yes. And this to me is what is so interesting about her is this resurgence, this kind of reclaiming of Baba Yaga that I think is really interesting.

Lucy Neptune  10:31

Absolutely. I think there's I mean, it definitely tracks with the resurgence and the current wave of people identifying as witches and living as witches and practicing. And it definitely comes with age I too am over the 50 mark. And it's interesting, I thought about Baba Yaga. And when I when I first begin, so I am I am not as steeped in folklore as my friend Evelyn here. And

Evelyn Archer  11:04

to be fair, I am. I am like a bunch of fairy tales got together and put on a Lady suit. Okay. So it's if you cut me like, that's what comes out. So don't feel bad about that. No, I

Lucy Neptune  11:19

don't I don't feel bad. But when I start to think about Baba Yaga I start from, so I grew up Catholic. And I left it, you know, after my first 18 years, but I still retain some of the worldview. Sure from that. So that's part of my starting point. When I think of Baba Yaga. And when I think of her, I'm afraid. I am nervous. I'm like, I'm sorry. She lives in a house with chicken feet that walks. I am scared. But as I keep thinking about her, I'm also realized that I am fascinated. Right? Right. I am I am. I you know, I picture myself almost approaching the house thinking about or like, Okay, I'm gonna go think about Baba Yaga and get ready for our recording and conversation tonight. Okay, and I'm instantly kind of on my best behavior. Wow. I like okay, all right. Yes, ma'am. I am going to think about you and hopefully, you know, do the honor and because I know she is mysterious, and possibly dangerous and material murky, Mercurial and I need to be all eyes and ears I need to kind of end that is often I think, what seems to happen with characters when they meet her like they, Oh, they, you know, I thought about, so Okay, so let me just finish the one thought so I start kind of from that Christian, anti Catholic kind of place thinking, Oh, I am afraid of her. She is scary.  And then as I hang out and think about her, I'm like, Oh, I'm becoming a Baba Yaga. Yeah, I'm so excited to become more of a Baba Yaga. Because when I think about her stories, the ones that I know, I think about our friend, the glorious Bowen Yang and his recent depiction of the iceberg. Oh, that sunk the Titanic, right? iceberg is just hanging out. Yeah, Baba Yaga she really wasn't her thing. Yeah, people come up in her yard, asking her for stuff. So yeah, you're gonna do a whole lot of housework. I'm not happy to see you. I moved out here. The hell away free people. And they're all here something to be separate the soil from the seeds. There's also something to

Evelyn Archer  13:32

be said is to when she asks you to do an impossible task. So what do you do? She just wants to see what you're going to do. Right? Right just wants to see what you're going to do. Render is it's interesting that you you bring up this whole, like coming up Catholic perspective, that's not something I'd I thought about, but it really is. It is the case that Western iconography, we have difficulty yet with things that are could that contain juxtaposition, other cultures do not seem to have the same kind of problem now that we do like you there. But there is something of what is my note here. There is something of the mother goddess, something of the goddess of destruction, something about transformation that takes place in that cauldron. She has both an origin story and a revenge tale more than once.

Lucy Neptune  14:29

And the goddess herself and Christianity definitely wanted to stamp out the goddess definitely wanted to deny the power of a female body that can give birth and feed another person and bleed without dying. Like very anti all that. So of course that has no room and that is instantly scary. And it's short and it's kind of two dimensional. But as you approach and hang out, it becomes three dimensional and you see the nuance and you can accept the nuance well

Evelyn Archer  14:59

One of the things that I think about as well is that so she's out there right in the house and chicken feet, and she's old and she's ugly, and she's very powerful. And people are very, very much afraid of her. And what that gets her is left the fuck alone to mind her own goddamn business because the truth of the matter is Lucy. If Baba Yaga had been if instead of being like an old wizard, Crone  hold for fight. Pause for guys for catfight, get down. Get down. Leave her alone.

Lucy Neptune  15:37

The scene was Irene Adler is sitting peacefully on two purses.

Evelyn Archer  15:41

I know you weren't doing anything. And we're doing the thing. He was just come up and your girl

Lucy Neptune  15:45

and her little brother, Dr. Watson hopped up? Well, what I was saying,

Evelyn Archer  15:49

Yes, we go back to being old, being ugly, being you know, not sexually viable, being scary, gets her left alone to my troll business. And if instead of being old and ugly, or whatever, if she were a young, beautiful woman living in a cottage in the woods, you know what that would get her that would get her endless fucking princes trying to come and do stuff that would be curses from jealous queens. She would not be left alone to mind her business. Now, sometimes her business is setting the house on fire. Sure, but it's still

Lucy Neptune  16:24

business, but it's probably something we deserved.

Evelyn Archer  16:27

Well, and there is something in the fantasy of wanting to be feared.

Lucy Neptune  16:32

Absolutely. Well, it's

Evelyn Archer  16:33

there's freedom. It's freedom. It's freedom being terrifying.

Lucy Neptune  16:37

It's freedom to be not appealing to the male gaze. It is very like oh, yeah, look at my whiskers. Look at my nose. Look at my, you know, absolutely. I am like as happy as a client absolutely

Evelyn Archer  16:49

down to it as a woman as women over 50 As women, as "femmes d'un certain age" There is an additional kind of a little wince when you first kind of become invisible in the right. But once that little pinches over, it opens up an entirely different worldview. And I think that that what is so interesting to me is women younger than us women in their 20s and 30s. Look at Baba Yaga. And instead of seeing her as something frightening, to say, that's life go hashtag life goals. Yes. Life.

Lucy Neptune  17:28

I'm so glad for them. They see me No, because I didn't see it early enough.

Evelyn Archer  17:33

Me too. Yeah. And I think about the it's a book now, but it was a column on the hairpin. called Ask Baba Yaga. Yes, yes. I hold on. I've got it. Yes. Ta Hooked. That's right. Taisia Kitaiskaia. did Ask Baba Yaga. And they are wonderful there. And their book now. And I chose one that I thought was very apropos. So the question is, I just kind of give you the there'll be links to all of these in the show notes if you want to go look at them. And also links to buy her book.  Dear Baba Yaga my depression seems to act up in the summertime. I hate feeling sad and isolated. Why it is so lovely and warm out. I'm on medication and take care of myself. Does it really have to be this heart? Baba Yaga you are a dark stone and the summer sun heats you darker. As long as you are a stone you must bear this heat and wait for the cool waters of the creek to suit you. Every shape morphs suddenly, sometime. And it is not for us to know when and we cannot will it? One day soon. You will hop from your stone. Whoo. I just gotta chill up my back for real one on that. So wonderful.  Leave her alone. She is not bothering you,

Lucy Neptune  18:55

Dr. Watson, come down,

Evelyn Archer  18:57

come down. Get down, go away. Find something else to do.

Lucy Neptune  19:03

Here. You can sit on this come sit on this. That's special. You should sit on it.

Evelyn Archer  19:07

He doesn't want to sit on any. But I think that that it she's a beautiful poet as well. What I think is so great. Is this embrace of something so ugly and terrifying? That it's like saying, No, I don't. I don't care. Or I care about different things. Right? You know?

Lucy Neptune  19:31

Absolutely. The thing I really like, and I continue to discover Baba Yaga and I look forward to just keep continuing discovering her as time goes on. The thing I really like is that she's about them thinking about the tasks that she sets. And she set like you said she sets the tasks. Almost that so that you can see what you're made of. Yeah, like you Casey capable. She already has a sense. I think before Like the minute you roll up, she sees you come in, she's got it sorted out, she knows what you're about. It's like, okay, you, you do this? And let's see. And then you also will have, you will know that you have earned the thing and then you will feel right.

Evelyn Archer  20:16

Well and also absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And I'm thinking about in some variants of this, she has a little doll with her that tells her how to do these things that acts as magical help. And there's a way to look at this the Vasilisa? Yeah, Vasilisa that it's the magical doll that helps her separate the poppy seeds from the soil. And what, to me what that is talking about is that this doll is her own intuition. It's her own wisdom. And Baba Yaga is asking her to she's trying to see can she listen to herself? Yes. Can she listen? If she can listen to herself? Yeah, then then She's someone I can help.

Lucy Neptune  21:00

Right? Right characters come to her and end up doubling down essentially on who they are. Yeah. Was by way of the tasks in the in several of the folktales and become more of themselves. And it's, it's almost like a an accelerator. I'm thinking like a particle accelerator. She's just like, Okay, you're gonna really become who you are now, through this. And so she's a she's a crucible. Yeah, you know, she's such an exciting figure. She's such an exciting and in way. I thinking of you being you know, a stepmother apologists, like if you come around to really, you know, owning your own Baba Yaga-ness. Like, oh, she's actually fairly consistent. Maybe she's not a trickster. Well, yeah, but she's doing her frickin thing. And all you different fools. Well, you're gonna get a different result. And I don't

Evelyn Archer  21:55

I don't see her as a trickster character. No, she's not trying to trick anyone. She's just not. She's ambiguous, because humans are ambiguous because the mystery of life is ambiguous sometimes. Good luck, bad luck. Who knows? You know that story. And I think about what you just said, I just lost it. I just I just had it

Lucy Neptune  22:18

about the tasks we're talking about. The tower particle accelerator particle accelerator, was after particle accelerator. It's not trickster. She's consistent. She's not a trickster.

Evelyn Archer  22:29

Now, I lost it. It's gone. It's gone. It's gone. It's gone. I got on talking about something. That's okay. It'll come back. It'll come back. But there is. I think that there is something to that, that. In this way. She manages to do her own kind of separation to like, separate the poppy seeds

Lucy Neptune  22:48

from the soil. Yes, yes.

Evelyn Archer  22:50

And it's, there's another story where I can't think of a story where she gets vanquished. Not like Greek myths. I know where you escape her. Right. But she you can she lives for another day. But yeah, like you have to call him the freakin Phoenix. Right? I don't know, man. Get you out of there. Like,

Lucy Neptune  23:14

it's you need all the all the little beings to be on your side. I read very

Evelyn Archer  23:19

recently. Veronica Schanoes in this wonderful collection of short stories, called the burning girls and other stories. It was Oh, who's the anarchist that I liked so much. Who's Emma Goldman? It was called Baba Yaga Takes Tea with Emma Goldman. Yes, please. And it was maybe one of my top three favorite stories in that whole book. And it's Emma Goldman. Kind of after she's been sent back to Russia, the revolution is kind of fit she failed. She's really dejected. She feels like she's fighting something that she's not going to win. She basically ends up kind of walking into the woods to like walk off an argument with someone and comes upon Baba Yaga’s hut. And Baba I was waiting for she was like, I think you should be the new Baba.

Lucy Neptune  24:13

Oh, interesting now Oh, wow.

Evelyn Archer  24:16

She should be the new Baba. Wow. And it's about kind of I'm not gonna spoil what happens but it's about kind of how that all Oh, transpires? It's a really great book. I highly recommend it. It's yeah, it's really really great. I don't want to say too much because Sure, I don't want to ruin anything but these sure what she does with the irony, I can ruin anything. It's gonna

Lucy Neptune  24:41

ruin everything. I'm excited about Emma Goldman being a Baba Yaga Yeah, I'm excited.

Evelyn Archer  24:46

It's it's a journey. It's a it's a real journey. And it's, it makes sense. I also love the idea of Baba Yaga being not a person but A position. Yes. Yes. Like, like it's a job. Yes. I, I really

Lucy Neptune  25:08

liked right. It's almost like a priest. I forget all the right terms now because it's been been decades but the diocese and like the Church says, Okay you go there and cover Kansas and you go over here and do that, like you know, and so like, Federation of Yaga is like I was thinking about it a little bit. We need so y'all like that there's

Evelyn Archer  25:27

one. I was thinking about it more like President working like, yeah, like it is an office that you hold for a while, and then you retire in someone else. I don't see it as bishops Catholic Church. I don't like Catholic upbringing. You see that? Okay, but like because there's only one there's only ever one. But she's never

Lucy Neptune  25:52

stand up. There's more than what? Well, okay, so in one of the tales I read one of the Oh, she has sister Right, right. So there's other Baba was interesting in this in this little book that I read, it's for a middle grade. Middle grade the house with chicken legs by Sophie Anderson, is the it's a story of this young girl Marinka, who is I think often traditionally considered the helper of Baba Yaga. Or I read that somewhere. And she lives with her Baba, she's about 10, 12 That kind of middle grade age. Yes. And she knows there are other Baba Yaga is out there. And there are some men, there are some women. And they all have their kind of territory, if you will. And they're, you know, and they're a big job of theirs is to help the dead through the gate to the stars beyond. And she's growing up and she is supposed to become the next Baba Yaga. So that idea of kind of training and your territory, if you will not that it's, you know, this is mine and don't come in they have this beautiful network between them. But there are there are several.

Evelyn Archer  27:08

Oh, that's it. I just meant like in terms of folklore, there's no Oh, yes. Yeah, sorry. There's not really swaths of Bobby Agus

Lucy Neptune  27:16

right. I

Evelyn Archer  27:18

thought we were Yes. No, no, certainly with artistic license, one can do whatever one wishes. Not saying that. But right. I've I like the way that I think about it in terms of iconography, that there but even here, it's an office that that is held that is being passed to someone else. And

Lucy Neptune  27:37

it's it's a bit of a calling and a bit of also you come up in the family business.

Evelyn Archer  27:41

Yes. Yeah. And that I just I'm always interested in that where you think of it as being a maid like Baba Yaga is a person and she has a person, but who she is, is the thing that she is. It's hard to explain. It's hard to explain. It's, it's very cool. I was also doing some reading, rereading of one of my other favorite Baba Yaga. Images is Chairman Yaga. From Deathless Oh, yes. And

Lucy Neptune  28:15

I forgot that she was Chairman

Evelyn Archer  28:16

Chairman Yaga. Chairman, if this is on my list of books that you need to read to understand me as a person, and this is Deathless by Cat Valente it is a retelling of the Russian folktale Koschei, the deathless set during the siege of Leningrad, and Baba Yaga. makes an appearance as chairman Yaga because we're dealing with communist stuff and she runs a factory. And she has I believe this is her line. I couldn't be sure but I know this is from deathless, I think this is Baba Yaga. Talking to Maria Mariska. That is how you get deathless, volchitsa, walk the same tail over and over until you were a groove in the world until even if you vanished. The tale would keep turning, keep playing like a phonograph. And you'd have to get up again, even with a bullet through your eye and play your part and say your lines.  And that's really to me like what the power of these particular kinds of stories are that we tell them over and over and over again and as they get sure they get different their the way that we see the story changes. But Vasalisa always completes those tasks and she always gets that fire back to her house. And it's it's just it's very it's extremely powerful for me and in Deathless by Chairman Yaga is really the one with Maria to kind of tell her what's what the only one who's really being truthful with Who's not playing games or, you know, trying to get one over on her. Now she has her own agenda for sure. But she doesn't tell her anything. That's actually a lie.

Lucy Neptune  30:10

Right. And there's something about I'm just thinking about the repetition of the story. We need that we do. There's something fundamental in us as humans that we need to hear stories repeated. And we often have to repeat certain circumstances and live out certain moments in order to truly cross them and leave them behind when repetition of story is important. And it can be duty and it can be, it can be both duty and freeing. So there's something very deep about about that line.

Evelyn Archer  30:51

I agree. And I do think that there is, and I'm sure a neurologist or cultural anthropologist could have a real answer. But I'm neither of those things. But I do find that there is something in the repetition of it, of telling and not just telling, but retelling. Like, there are retellings of fairy tales, and this is a retelling your house is a retelling of Baba Yaga. And I think about the opening number of Hades town where he says, Hermes says it's a sad song. It's a sad tale. It's a tragedy. It's a sad song. But we're gonna sing it again. Maybe it will work out this time. Who knows? Oh, and there is a sense of optimism to to that like it right. We know how it's going to end. But maybe it'll work out this time. Like it's, and there's real power in that.

Lucy Neptune  31:48

Right. And there's beauty in traveling that path again.

Evelyn Archer  31:52

Yeah. And I just want to say just for the record that I am the one that scooped Hades town for everyone. I scooped this as a huge hit back when it was a concept album back in 2015. Yes, so that was me. Just wanted you to know.

Lucy Neptune  32:10

Points to Evelyn to 1010 10 across the board 10s and 10s. Across the board,

Evelyn Archer  32:19

what else do you have?

Lucy Neptune  32:21

What else do I have? Um, I wanted to just give a huge shout out to whoever the tale Teller was that originally placed her in a mortar and pestle now to have her that's her mode of transportation.

Evelyn Archer  32:35

It's absolute.

Lucy Neptune  32:36

It's so good. It's so so like, who got her in that? And how did that start? Someone started that somehow. Well started. That's

Evelyn Archer  32:44

not a that's not a person that started that. No, but that's about elective. But that started someone

Lucy Neptune  32:50

started it. It's just like a viral saying, right? Launch somewhere it started.

Evelyn Archer  32:57

It did start but I don't necessarily believe that there is an author, I think I

Lucy Neptune  33:02

think is an author either, but somewhere someone kicked off the telling. And then like somebody Ooh, when I tell it next time, I'm going to use that. Well, I

Evelyn Archer  33:09

think that it just made sense. Because that's what you know, what's in the why not

Lucy Neptune  33:14

a broom, though? Well, now which which is which is the pestle the vessel are the mortars, the vessel and the pestles? The thing?

Evelyn Archer  33:20

I believe the mortar is the thing and the pestle is the verb. Okay, but I could be No, wait.

Lucy Neptune  33:26

I think you're right. I think the pestle is the pole.

Evelyn Archer  33:30

I think the pestle is the pole and the mortar is the container. But you know, it's in the mortar. Right? You know, it's in her mortar seats, right? No,

Lucy Neptune  33:38

no, what's in the no bonus?

Evelyn Archer  33:40

Bones. Bones of the dead. of the ship girl. And I think that I mean, why not a broom, why a broom? Right? Well, because it's

Lucy Neptune  33:52

well, she's the OG which then they just say, Chuck the mortar and pestle firm and there she flies.

Evelyn Archer  33:59

The thing is, though, that's not really how these trees work. Like,

Lucy Neptune  34:02

I know I completely understand there was not like an author that wrote up like everyone, but like,

Evelyn Archer  34:08

it comes up in Russia this way. Because that is what their world is it comes up in Ireland another way because that is what their world is. Yeah. And I think that, for me, what's really powerful about the mortar and pestle, is the fact that it's a vessel like, like a uterus, or

Lucy Neptune  34:30

her cauldron which vagina

Evelyn Archer  34:33

or more of a uterus rather than because that is actually a container.

Lucy Neptune  34:40

I sounds really stupid. They're like, Oh, Evelyn, it's also a vagina.

Evelyn Archer  34:45

Yes, yes. Yes.

Lucy Neptune  34:47

Vagina that comes before the here uterus and you put but it doesn't it but

Evelyn Archer  34:52

that's sometimes, but it's what holds it. You know, it's a baby. Yeah, it's what and There is something of a transformative nature the Cauldron is big iconography throughout all different places we're talking about, which is a place of transformation. Like you put something into a culture and and it comes out changed. Yes, and pestle. And it also reminds me I had this book of not fairytales. They were like nursery rhymes, I guess. I could show it to you. It's, it's positively iconic. Like everyone will know what I'm talking about. Like it's the illustrator was very iconic and the cover was from my favorite one, the old woman tossed up in a basket. Do you know?

Lucy Neptune  35:47

I'm, I have a memory but I don't have a full memory.

Evelyn Archer  35:50

I remember there was a folk singer that I knew who did an acapella just like she would do. There was an old woman tossed up in a basket tossed up in a basket as high as the moon. Do you know that? There was an old woman tossed up in a basket, and in her hand, she carried a broom. So it is old woman, old woman, old woman says i Where are you going in the basket so high, to sweep up the cobwebs from off of the sky? Can I go with you? I find by. It's very it's very creepy. It's wonderful. It's very creepy. But the image of that when I later saw illustrations of Baba Yaga that's what I saw. Because yes, in a basket, almost like rowing right with her with her broom, right? Yeah, it's and that is absolutely to sweep up the cobwebs from off of the sky. Can I go with you? Aye. Bye & bye.  you'll get your little girl? Don't you worry.

Lucy Neptune  36:47

Right, right. bide your time, right, you have to walk the full path,

Evelyn Archer  36:51

you have to walk the full path. But eventually you too will be an old woman tossed up in a basket. Oh, and that's what why I often joke that in profile, you can tell that I come from a long line, which is if you look at my profile. Do you see how my nose actually curves down? And my chin curves up?

Lucy Neptune  37:14

A little bit? Yes, you have dainty

Evelyn Archer  37:16

features, though. But on from the side. It's also Welsh features. So that's very Welsh. But that is I always said that makes me look like the old woman tossed up in a basket.

Lucy Neptune  37:26

Oh, yeah. Yes, it's got our baskets. Yeah, but

Evelyn Archer  37:30

toss them toss them up. But I have some. I have some crone detectives to kind of bridge our gap. Oh, yes. Step on your biz.

Lucy Neptune  37:39

Let me just look here. I had written down that I was happy to bring my I brought my deck of Lenormand Lenormand. Thank You cards that my grandmother my grandmother had given given them to me and they're from 1940. And the pack says old g***y fortune telling cards,

Evelyn Archer  37:59

g****s a slur. We don't like to say yes or no. That's how old that's how old this is, is that they call them g***y fortune telling. Yes. Yeah. But I

Lucy Neptune  38:08

love that I brought my grandmother's a gift from my grandma. I do to this evening. I think it's perfect. And I Oh, I want you to tell our friends the story of how you got fired from daycare because that is a Baba Yaga seedling. If I ever did here at one, I don't know if I want to tell them. No, it's really good. If you insist I kind of want to insist.

Evelyn Archer  38:34

Alright, so I'm about 20 years old. And it's summer between years of college. I think the summer between junior and senior doesn't matter. Anyway, I was broke. I needed a job. It's the summer and you know, it's a daycare. They're basically hiring warm bodies. Oh, you have a vagina you can look after. And here's my goth riot girl self goes in for first day of daycare. And let me tell you this job was not for me. It was a nightmare. It was hot. It was outside. These kids were bananas. They were awful. Like there was no like cute Kindergarten Cop moments. Like they were not. It was awful. It was me there were too many kids and there weren't enough adults. And this one little boy had just been fucking the worst. All day long. It was the worst. And then at some point during the day, I was wearing some kind of amulet. I don't even remember. And he's like, Oh, are you a witch? Are you a witch witch witch and I turned to him and I look him right in the eyes. This kids may be four or five years old. I should go to jail. I look him right in the eyes. And I go yes. Yes, I am a witch. And so is my mother. And you know what the first thing was that she taught me how to eat little boys. Just like you. If you want to play motherfucker, we'll play and he's like, oh, like and he went and told like the head lady and she was like, um, we're gonna need to see I'm like, it's cool. I'm out. Peace. I'm leaving. It's

Lucy Neptune  40:01

cool man as a straight up, Bobby shoving her

Evelyn Archer  40:05

in that moment. I love that the truth of the matter was I didn't want that job. Okay, I didn't, I had no business taking care of anybody's kids, no business. Now, they also had no business hiring me. Right. Like, however, I had no experience with kids literally less than one day. Right. And I don't remember what I think I ended up doing shorter cooking after that, like, that was not a good scene that summer.

Lucy Neptune  40:32

I love that though. It has serious Baba Yaga energy. And it's also it's great, because sometimes kids you know, you kind of got to just out kid them. Say yes, play. Yeah, I will outplay you because I know what's up. And this is a good lesson for you. Well, and it

Evelyn Archer  40:50

was really like a terrible kind of, I don't know, subversive is the right word. But like it goes against everything that you know, you're taught, right? Like, yeah, as a woman, you're supposed to love kids and be nurturing and gently correct them gently correct them and be like, Oh, haha, no, or that can be a secret or like something. You're not actually supposed to threaten them. Like, you're not like I fell on threaten this kid.

Lucy Neptune  41:14

You know what, though, of few I want to say a couple years ago, I remember reading an article on NPR website somewhere. And it was talking about child rearing practices of families. It was in somewhere in the Arctic Circle. And they used stories and monsters to guide their kids, because they're living outdoors often, like they have to have a full day being outside doing whatever, they can't watch the kid every second. So they say if you go near that water, the monster will eat you.

Evelyn Archer  41:47

Well, we made a version that you know,

Lucy Neptune  41:50

well. I feel like that's I've seen I feel like the very modern progressive parents today. Say, you know, that's not okay. You have to do like they logic. Well, it's ours versus like, using the power of story and the power of folktales. And all of that, too. You know,

Evelyn Archer  42:09

I mean, did the survey really don't do that anymore? Do parents really not say, you know, there's a monster in the

Lucy Neptune  42:15

stove? Do let him do but not all, my sister did not do something like that.

Evelyn Archer  42:19

Like, are these the same class I see this. Sometimes when I read like parenting advice columns, they're like, I want to let our kids have Santa Claus. But my husband says we should never lie to our children. And so we should not let them have Santa Claus. I'm like, right? Not lying.

Lucy Neptune  42:34

Right. But that's an extreme example. But yeah, that's an extreme example.

Evelyn Archer  42:38

But I wonder if it comes from that kind of place that we need to logic then we need to, yeah, entirely rational beings, which is unhealthy.

Lucy Neptune  42:47

It's unhealthy. And you're missing part of the human experience. I think by doing it

Evelyn Archer  42:52

and an important part of problem solving, and an important part of being a human and like a fully realized rich life, where I live in this kind of toxic. That's some that is as as the girls say, that is a toxic masculinity ruining the party again, because when when you're elevating, logic, reason, all of that over imagination and emotion all of the time that's elevating, kind of, for lack of a better term, like these kind of toxic masculine energies. Yeah, I'm not having it. But it is good. I mean, that. What's interesting to me about that story about the folks in the Arctic, is that we'll use it some, but they're using it entirely.

Lucy Neptune  43:38

Yes. Because they did not think it was appropriate at all to yell at a child. They saw it right. If you're really Yeah, that's no, right. If you're yelling, You've completely lost your plot. Right? You have no authority you, you know, no one will respect you. It's just foolish. Yeah. And bad form as well. But, but they will use the stories. And obviously, as the kids grew up, they realize these stories are not like 100% Always in the world. True,

Evelyn Archer  44:07

right? Pardon me, but are not untrue. untrue. Right.

Lucy Neptune  44:11

There are some monsters in the water that will eat you. Yeah, if you go in.

Evelyn Archer  44:15

So if there is, you know, a fire demon that lives in the stove that will bite you if you touch it. Yeah. Not entirely wrong.

Lucy Neptune  44:24

Yeah, yeah. You'll feel it when it happened. Yeah,

Evelyn Archer  44:26

you'll feel it happens. Yeah. And you know, you can explain that away with science. But you know, it's still the same thing. Yeah.

Lucy Neptune  44:33

Yeah, I found that interesting. It is interesting. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Tell us all right. Sure.

Evelyn Archer  44:41

So I have I started thinking about the crone detectives and you've got your Jane marbles and you've got your Jessica Fletcher's, but they weren't really hitting on it for me. Like they're all a little bit too nice. They're all a little bit too sweet. And cute. Now, there is something to be said for The fact that Jaime even Jane Marple and Jessica Fletcher will be the villain in your story if you are the murderer.  Okay, yes. I wanted to talk about the little known criminally under red, Mrs. Bradley mysteries. By Gladys Mitchell. She wrote more than 60 books between 1929 into the 80s sets placements, played between 1998 and 2000. on BBC by the great Diana Rigg, highly recommend, highly recommend. And this is what then these are kind of golden age ish mysteries. Mrs. Bradley kind of breaks away from the the Jane Marples of the of the era because she had a proper job. She's a doctor. She's a psychoanalyst, so she understands psychology, and she has patients and career and you know, three dead husbands.  Hmm, just saying. But I was struck by Gladys Mitchell's initial description of Mrs. Bradley that goes like this. "Mrs. Bradley was dry without being shriveled, and birdlike without being pretty. She reminded Alister Bing, who was afraid of her, of the reconstruction of a pterodactyl he had once seen in a German Museum. There was the same inhuman malignity in her expression as in that of the defunct bird and like it, she had a cynical smirk about her mouth, even when her face was in repose. She possessed nasty, dry, claw like hands and her arms, yellow and curiously repulsive, suggested the plucked wings of a fowl."

Lucy Neptune  46:42

 Whoo. 

Evelyn Archer  46:43

So not only is she smart, and oh, but she ugly, like a bird like a bird. And that's the description. My note here is if that's some description of Baba Yaga I will eat my own face.

Lucy Neptune  46:56

Well, you don't have to because that is exactly a Baba Yaga.

Evelyn Archer  46:59

I mean, granted, she is played by Diana Rigg in the movies, some TV. You know that how that goes. And what I think he's great about her. What I remember from these is that her morality is a little bit different than like, okay, Marple when she doesn't even think that murder is the worst thing a person can do. For her murder is not the worst crime. The worst crime for her is rape, followed by blackmail, and drug running. Because those are things that ruins people's entire lives. A murder just ends it.

Lucy Neptune  47:32

I can see her logic. And

Evelyn Archer  47:34

so here's what she says when she's talking about. Someone says, Well, you know, women aren't as rational as men. And she's like, he says, you're rational like a man. Most women aren't rational. She says, I am rational like a man I rationally want to take a bath. Well, this response to their perceptive speaking women's, "their perceptive powers are often livelier than those of men, who are apt to be ponderous and slow witted in the question of human relations. And therefore, women arrive at the truth with what is, to men, unfair leaps in the dark over logical fences and obstacles." She's like, it's not that they're not logical. It's that they're just paying attention to different stuff. And you think it's magic? Because you're a dumdum.

Lucy Neptune  48:19

Girl, is not wrong. So I feel like I've had, yes, that experience. There are subjective rows at

Evelyn Archer  48:25

work. Yeah, there are some gender binary things in this that I'm not entirely comfortable with. But I do know that you have like I was just about to mention you have had problems with tech bros. At your work being up really? What is it here ponderous and slow witted? In the question of human relations? 

Lucy Neptune  48:45

Right, and consequently, threatened by a more nimble mind, perhaps.

Evelyn Archer  48:49

And when a mind can make those kinds of leaps? And she's saying, you know, it's a women's minds, but really what it is are minds that don't necessarily issue, logic or reason. But add in other stuff? Yes.

Lucy Neptune  49:06

Yes. They embrace the logic of a fairy tale or have a dream, right dream logic, or makes all kinds of sense, but it doesn't make technical sense or

Evelyn Archer  49:16

in, you know, the logic of knowing how people's feelings work, and understanding that emotions are real and not threatening, right. And there's all sorts of stuff to that. But I think that there's something really interesting about Mrs. Bradley as a Baba Yaga. Again, you know, she doesn't live in a hut on chicken people. People certainly do come to her with problems. And she certainly can set them with some impossible tasks. And they're very, the movies are a little bit different. I kind of like her a little bit better in the books. She's a little more horrible. And I love that she's horrible again, it's that that thing that freedom and being terrifying. Yes, and she is In fact, she reminded Alister Bing who was afraid of her. And I really love this idea of an older terror rep. She's often described as reptilian, who, just older reptilian lady.  And I do think that there we talked before about the witches, the outlier and the detective as outlier. And, you know, I always use Sam Spade as kind of my catch all term for these kinds of detectives. But you know, your Sam Spade is trying to solve the problem. You want me to help you solve a problem? Baba Yaga wants you want her to help you solve the problem. And there are these bridges that like one is like a smaller version, maybe not smaller, but like, like the detective is like the small mystery of what happened, what happened to the thing? And Baba Yaga, the bigger mystery of can you listen to the doll of your own wisdom? Mm hmm. And yeah, you know, but they're doing very much the same thing, like sitting in their office. Like, I do think Baba Yaga I would make a great prep detective.

Lucy Neptune  51:12

I wasn't saying great therapists. I mean, just like the advice Yeah. Yeah, she's gonna give you I remember, in theater school, they would say, you know, when you're about to lead, like your section, like give them a puzzle to figure out the other puzzle? Like there's an intersection. So as a TA or something, oh, good teaching, you know, like they have a problem acting like well, okay, I'm going to give you this puzzle. And by playing it, you'll actually figure out the other thing. 

Evelyn Archer  51:39

Oh, give me an example. 

Lucy Neptune  51:41

Let's see. So I can't stop. Like an actor might not be able to stop moving their feet and shifting around on the stage. You know, I give them I can't think like an immediate puzzle, but you give them an exercise that causes them like, okay, so instead, I'm going to have you take these beads and pass it to the other person very mindfully when you talk. So then they're focused on this other thing, which is curing the first problem. So there's opposed to just saying, quit moving your feet. What, right you can do that. But then you want to also like, give them the proper channel kind of thing. So you give them another thing? First thing, so I feel like she's really good at that. It's interesting. Mrs. Bradley to think about Baba Yaga as a therapist, like giving you some shit to work on. Yeah. And the therapist is so gentle, I beg your pardon is important. Thank you, as an analyst, yeah, well, I don't even know if and the thing that's interesting and thinking about maybe the shady morality that you described, is that maybe she doesn't really want to solve it that's undergoing she wants to poke around and examine it because it's interesting. And watch

Evelyn Archer  52:46

does want to solve the the mystery she saw. Okay, but what her point is that like, unlike Jane Marple, or Jessica Fletcher, like when they hear about the murder, and find out what the murderer did, and who the murderer is, there's the sense of disappointment in this person who went against and did the thing. And isn't that terrible that he went down so far. And so, especially Jessica Fletcher was very disappointed.  Mrs. Bradley is more like, you did it. You need to go to jail. But I understand why you did it. This is why you did it. And it's more of a removed than she doesn't think murder is great. But she doesn't think it's the worst thing a person can do. Right? And it's her distance from that allows her to really see parts of the story to see the clues in a particular way and to understand, you know, supposedly how a murderer thinks now a lot of those today are very dated. They're very dated with 1930s 40s psychoanalytic stuff. Sure, but I do think that she is because she's not. She's interested in solving the puzzle. And helping the person who needs help. But really not interested in judging the murderer. Right, right. Like, you know, he was a tyrant. He was he was, honestly I've met every Agatha Christie I've ever read. Every murder victim pretty much there are few exceptions. The clocks is an exception. But they deserved it. Like, you know, the main guy usually deserves it. Like he's usually he's some kind of thinking about murder at the vicarage, he's a tyrant. He's lording his money over everybody else. He stole somebody so like everybody's got a reason like a legitimate reason to kill him. And instead of like Miss Marple sympathies are certainly with the family and with the murder person simply for the fact that they were murdered right Mrs. Bradley's more like no, I think he had a comment. But you know, Oh, I like her. Yeah, yeah, she's great. She's and she She's very, she's very educated. She knows things about modern poetry and Greek mythology. She's very in the 1930s and 40s. She was like, kind of like one of those new women times, which is really, really fun. And Diana Rigg has a blast. Oh, I bet laying her you can probably get them on DVD from the library. They actually may even be streaming on like the acorns or something.

Lucy Neptune  55:23

I think I wonder if it's Sunday prime or something? Yeah. I'll check it out. Very cool. Very cool. And of course, Baba Yaga. makes us think about Yubaba. Yes. Venture into Miyazaki magic worlds which is in our next

Evelyn Archer  55:42

Yes. Which is so you will find you know, any mention of Yubaba from Spirited Away decidedly absent from this conversation, right? Because we kind of decided that we have not forgotten we have not forgotten we decided we needed to. She needs to have her own. Yes, situation Spirited Away. But we're probably going to have more than one Miyazaki episode

Lucy Neptune  56:04

and more than one Baba Yaga. And more than the big one.

Evelyn Archer  56:07

Yeah, there's a whole Jessica Fletcher and Baba Yaga. Like, yeah, that we did. Like there's an I don't know what order these are coming

Lucy Neptune  56:14

out. But yeah. Do you have a dick of the week, Evelyn?

Evelyn Archer  56:18

Do you have a deck and I do have a deck like your your deck in a week, the

Lucy Neptune  56:21

deck of the week is most adults in developed countries for wrecking the fucking environment. We are the decks of the week. I saw that IPCC report come out. I had not a small amount of climate panic. Yeah, I called Evelyn. Quick, I need to learn all about bleach and ammonia and things to do with vinegar. And I don't cook and I'm just panicking. And I was

Evelyn Archer  56:47

like, You know what?Lucy, you've got tools. You fix the bikes and you get like, you get our Mad Max cars running.

Lucy Neptune  56:55

I'm all over it.

Evelyn Archer  56:55

I like I can make a vinegar. Yeah, I can make vinegar. Okay, it's, it's I actually I am actually thinking about making some vinegar and gifting it to you. Oh, my

Lucy Neptune  57:05

Lord could be done. I know I believe you I believe in you said you could coax yeast from the air and coax

Evelyn Archer  57:09

yeast from the air. It's any kind of like homesteading kind of shit. Like any of that kind of witchy shit. Yeah. But what I told Lucy, is that the way that I quell my own climate panic. We are assholes. Like we really did this fucker did up. And we did. But I will say that nature is surprising, which is what you said to me tonight over dinner. And I will also say that humans are incredibly resilient. And adaptable. Yes. And we will adapt to whatever comes. Yes.

Lucy Neptune  57:53

And I also realized that bad things will happen. But they rarely happen. Exactly how you picture the wind, your panic.

Evelyn Archer  58:01

I don't think that there's going to be a moment. You know what I mean? I don't think there's going to be like, there's not going to be a lightning strike moment where,

Lucy Neptune  58:09

right unless, you know, a meteor comes and we go that route, which I don't think it's going to happen. I think. I mean, I'm reading articles about Gulfstream collapse. I'm reading articles about you know, the glaciers melting, all the things are happening, right. So there will be fall and we also have this crazy virus, you know, kicking our ass, which actually made us stop for a while and let you know, the canals in Venice flow clear against rain. So who knows? Maybe it's an epic duel between virus and you know, methane? I don't know. But, but I just wanted to acknowledge that. Yes, most adults in the developed world are part of the dick of the week. Yeah, probably

Evelyn Archer  58:54

Us included. Us include.

Lucy Neptune  58:56

Oh, I absolutely. Include myself.

Evelyn Archer  58:58

Absolutely. Look at all of this recording equipment that we're using. 

Lucy Neptune  59:01

We're using it for good. 

Evelyn Archer  59:02

Yeah. So never going to decay. Right. So right about that battery on that laptop. Well, that live

Lucy Neptune  59:11

years from now. I know what to do with this and we'll deconstruct our equipment. And hopefully well,

Evelyn Archer  59:17

and that's the thing. Like I think the idea that it that this is one of my big pet peeves is that the second greatest trick the devil ever pulled is convincing individuals that it's our responsibility alone to solve the climate problem by using reusable straws.

Lucy Neptune  59:41

right?

Evelyn Archer  59:42

You know what? I like using a reusable straw because I don't like to waste things and it feels like a waste of money, right. But I also know like I remember when this started because I am an old And I don't know if any of you out there are also old and remember the anti littering campaign with a Native American guy with the tear. Yes. But it was uh Oh, you people are littering and you're ruining the planet putting that right pushing that onto the consumer. Do you know who paid for that advertisement?

Lucy Neptune  1:00:19

Was it Exxon Mobil?

Evelyn Archer  1:00:21

It was Coca Cola. Coca Cola had just made the move from glass to plastic and plastic was filling up landfills and was not so rather than not use plastic bottles themselves. They pushed it on to the consumer to be our fault.

Lucy Neptune  1:00:39

Retro Dick OF THE WEEK retro

Evelyn Archer  1:00:41

is Coca Cola. Like, that's just an exam. Right. Right. But that's shorn of the ways that it started. And that is absolutely the second biggest trick the devil ever pole sure is to make us think it's our individual fault and problem when right when it's actually systemic. And the system is what needs to change. Now, what can be really good, I think about these more sustainable ways of living. What can be good about them? Is that that can start the undercurrent sea change, right. To maybe, but really what we need is regulations. Right. For corporations,

Lucy Neptune  1:01:21

leaders. With spine. Yes, yeah.

Evelyn Archer  1:01:24

For the dismantling of capitalism and white supremacy. 

Lucy Neptune  1:01:28

That as well. 

Evelyn Archer  1:01:29

that actually would work. Yes, that would fix it. It would be it would be fixed in six months. If we were to dismantle capitalism and white supremacy, yes. Like, which are inextricably linked to Don't even start I mean, I'm a bolshevik, so you know, Viva la revolution on motherfuckers. Like, I want some heads on pikes. This is not actually a threat. This is just like a, you know, not just an image so poetic image. Not actually. We do not have a sign off yet. Do we?

Lucy Neptune  1:02:03

I have a Witch of the  week. Oh, who's your which of the week? My wish of the week? I need my glasses to read. All right. Bob comes to us. Through the obituary column today. Elka Schumann was the matriarch of bread and puppet theater. And my God he decide and I am tell the listeners

Evelyn Archer  1:02:25

what bread and Puppet is.

Lucy Neptune  1:02:28

So bread and Puppet I'm reading from the New York Times now known for its countercultural messaging through avant garde puppeteering died August 1, up in Vermont, right? Yes, they're up in Vermont. She originally came from Russia.

Evelyn Archer  1:02:45

Of course, because she's a puppeteer. Everybody knows that. Eastern Europe does the best puppets and puppeteer so. Yes, that so yeah, awesome. Bread and puppet theater fucking Bolshevik puppeteer.

Lucy Neptune  1:02:57

Dedicated to two types of art, baking and puppetry, fresh baked sourdough bread milled and baked by her husband was distributed to troupe members and the audience while monstrous, not monstrous paper mache puppets propelled by actors inside them told stories that took on social and political causes, like housing inequality and anti war and anti draft activism. Oh, yes. So and there's a beautiful photo which was taken to which I can't see right now. But looks you know, they have these kind of big human size you

Evelyn Archer  1:03:29

have to release if you don't Okay, you probably. Yeah, I brought up yet. listeners. You may have seen bread and Puppet but you didn't know it was bread and puppet. What was the name of that fantastic Netflix show? About? She's reliving the same night over and over again.

Lucy Neptune  1:03:47

Oh, Russian doll Russian doll

Evelyn Archer  1:03:49

at the end of Russian doll and she's going through the little tunnel. Yeah, they're the puppets that are coming at her. Those are bread and Puppet puppets. Yes, that is bread and puppet. Motherfuckers rested. broer Mishima. Elsa. Elka. Elka Schumann rest in power Elka Schumann at five years old? Yes.

Lucy Neptune  1:04:07

Born 1000 miles east of Moscow.

Evelyn Archer  1:04:09

No. Bless. Yes, bless.

Lucy Neptune  1:04:12

She's lived all over the place. She was young. They fled to Japan, then to Hawaii, then to San Francisco, then to Pennsylvania, then to New York, then to Berlin, etc. And finally to Vermont. And what a powerful lovely, lovely lady.

Evelyn Archer  1:04:25

What a powerful that is definitely our which of the week Yes, giving us bread and puppet. Oh, how lovely. Well, Lucy, it's been a blast.

Lucy Neptune  1:04:34

Evelyn. This has been a lovely, warm episode.

Evelyn Archer  1:04:39

Yeah. We're in the middle of August and it is hot as the devil's ball sack. And, yeah, yes,

Lucy Neptune  1:04:47

I bet there's a good Russian euphemism. But I don't know what right now but we'll look it up and see what we get

Evelyn Archer  1:04:52

when you find it. But it's we don't have a sign off yet. But we're trying to figuring it out.

Lucy Neptune  1:04:57

Until next week, friends 

Evelyn Archer  1:04:59

Until next week friends. 

Evelyn Archer  00:00

You've been listening to Witches and Dicks. Rate, review and subscribe to activate the tracking spell. It feeds the algorithm and helps new listeners find us. Leave us a five star review and we'll read it on the air. Send any and all correspondence to Witches and Dicks. That's witchesanddicks@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. 

Witches and Dicks is a Harlow Gold Production with NancyLu Studios. To any extent that it was written, it was written by Lucy Neptune and Evelyn Archer. That's me.  You can find Lucy on Instagram at @LucyNeptuneWND. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram @evelynarches. You can book a Tarot reading with me at askevelynarcher.com and you can buy my books, The Strange Files of Modesty Brown, on Amazon and Smashwords. 

Our audio engineer is Nancy Lu herself. Our logo was created by Alex Zapata. Music by pretty sleepy on Pixabay. Transcript by otter AI. Special thanks to Allan Lewis for IT and moral support.  This podcast brought to you by The Fool card, public libraries and too many candles.